Biological sex

[fromtheshires]

Ive been reading a lot of posts on the main boards where FWR keeps coming up about trans women are men and have a question so thought I'd ask it on here.

I am fully aware I'm going to get flamed before I ask it but it's a question that i actually think is important to help me understand this topic.

It usually ends up an argument about toilets and safe spaces on the main boards so my question is if a biological female to male trans person was to use the women's toilets what would the reaction be at seeing someone with muscles, tattoos and a beard in the female toilets because they are biologically female but look like a man? What about someone who was raped but attends a female only SA support group because they are biologically female?

And before you all begin, I'm no guardian journo, just interested in the responses to broaden my understanding

The removal of a penis and testicles does not erase male socialisation, or remove male privilege. It does not alter male sexualised thought, although it may remove the main physical means of carrying out those thoughts. A man without a penis is still a man.

Sex offenders who were castrated were found to be even more violent towards their victims.

Ah I see this has already been raised

Third spaces that are mixed sex are not the answer as transwomen would not want to use them. They use women’s spaces as it is the women who use the space that is important, not the space itself.

I'd also like to know why challenging blatant gynophobia is considered 'transphobia'.

The only way this can be true is if the routine actions of the TRAs are inherently and unashamedly gynophobic.

It’s not just about the (re) configuration of genitalia.

Rightly it wrongly I do not feel comfortable with people who grew up as boys being able to see my naked body unless I know and trust them.

The male gaze. Women’s bodies as objects of sexual focus… or contempt. The vile slang names men (gay and straight ) use about women’s bodies. This is part of the whole reason women need safe spaces!

Trans women did not grow up with female bodies. They grew up in a male grouping. Patriarchy. Whatever difficulties and discrimination they encountered as Trans people, I do nt feel comfortable naked before people who grew up in a masculine culture.

OK: you can’t generalise, most will be trustworthy, benign, safe.

But when a woman decides to get an Uber rather than walk home alone at night from the station , when a man chooses to meet his DW at the station, they / we are not reacting to the majority Good Guys, but the minority. We can’t take the risk.

Men weaponised sex, exploitation, objectification etc against women. No wonder we need safe spaces.

How do you mean 'change fully', though?

Even if you have any part of your genitals/sex-specific organs removed or restyled - whether as a result of medical need or a desire to more closely approximate to a facsimile of what the opposite sex has - you are still inherently male or female.

Presuming that nobody would try to suggest that a woman who had needed an emergency hysterectomy had become a 'man'; nor that a man who had had cancer requiring a penectomy had become a 'woman' - biologically speaking, what is the difference?

We're back to "I am now the opposite sex, because I want to be" - even if some surgery has actually taken place.

At risk of getting deleted again, have you heard of AGP? These are men who get a sexual thrill out of pretending to be a woman. They are classed as transwomen so if you're letting transwomen into women's spaces then you let in the ones who are getting off on it too. Debbie Hayton has admitted to having it but transactivists usually try to cover up the existence of it. That's why I said about getting deleted as talking about it on here seems to be hit and miss depending on who is manning the delete button.

A lot of us do know transpeople, our position doesn't come from ignorance. My neighbour knows that I am gender critical and consider him a man but we get on ok. We chat and he knows that while I could never consider him to be a woman, I don't want him to be harmed or to suffer abuse.

Grayson Perry is also very open about having AGP.

Nobody is being hateful or 'phobic', even though Grayson makes no bones about wishing to present as and dress like a 'girl' - something that no biologically female-born adult of Grayson's age could be mistaken for - rather than actually as a 'woman'.

A large proportion of transwomen are also attracted to women. Just mentioning this, as I think OP has a very restricted view of transwomen. So, many of these men have fully functioning penises and a desire for women, and are pushing to be in changing spaces with naked women. What could possibly go wrong?

And before you all begin, I'm no guardian journo, just interested in the responses to broaden my understanding

Don't worry OP I'm pretty sure no one would have thought that. A Guardian journalist would never come on here and ask people's opinions, they'd just make it up.

A woman dressed up to look like a man is not a threat to woman. Men are responsible for sex crimes against women and its their sex that makes them a threat. Its what goes on in a mans head that makes him dangerous, so a woman who looks like a man is fine as she does not have those thought processes and entitlement.

There is no "changing fully".

I would still feel the same about an impotent man sharing my changing room/refuge/prison/toilet, and I would feel the same about a man who had his penis removed because of cancer or an accident. I STILL wouldn't want him in there, because he is, and remains, a MAN.

The actual penis itself has nothing to do with it. The two examples I gave above do not suddenly make a man into a woman, and neither does willingly having your genitals amputated.
These people are still male. I have no access to the feelings in their heads which make them think they are women - because when you follow this ideology through to its conclusion, that is ALL that there is, a feeling that they are women.

I don't think men should be given access to female spaces based on a feeling. There is not a shred of evidence of any kind that "gender" exists, it is akin to a religious belief.
On the other hand, there is solid evidence that women and girls are at risk of predatory males in their spaces and that allowing ANY man into those spaces will increase that risk.
Again, penis or no, it is irrelevant.

Men of any kind do not belong in spaces created for women only.

The good men stay out - so the bad men stand out.

a feeling that they are women

And this ‘feeling’ is a man’s fantasises of how it would feel to be a woman, based on their very male perspective, and generally a very sexualised misogynistic male perspective at that.