Biological sex

[fromtheshires]

Ive been reading a lot of posts on the main boards where FWR keeps coming up about trans women are men and have a question so thought I'd ask it on here.

I am fully aware I'm going to get flamed before I ask it but it's a question that i actually think is important to help me understand this topic.

It usually ends up an argument about toilets and safe spaces on the main boards so my question is if a biological female to male trans person was to use the women's toilets what would the reaction be at seeing someone with muscles, tattoos and a beard in the female toilets because they are biologically female but look like a man? What about someone who was raped but attends a female only SA support group because they are biologically female?

And before you all begin, I'm no guardian journo, just interested in the responses to broaden my understanding

Isn’t it telling that the only risk OP perceives in this situation is to the men - that they may be accused of being sex pests. Not the risk to the girl that they might actually be sex offenders. Let alone any considerations of privacy or dignity.

So, I'm a bit confused - what is it about your views here that you think are different from the views of most 'gender critical' feminists on this board?

This is something I was unaware of and would have assumed that most if not all would have surgery or being getting surgery to change fully once they had undergone their period of living as the opposite sex.

Narrow-hipped transmen really? The hips have been the big giveaway for several of them in my experience. Apart from the height, and the way they inhabit their bodies. There's a reason osteoarchaeologists use the pelvis to give an indication of the sex of skeletons long after the soft tissue has gone.

The vast majority of 'trans women' retain their penises. Figures are sketchy, but some are listed here:

https://fairplayforwomen.com/penis/

No. It is a very common misunderstanding. 95% or more males declaring they are woman keep their penises. And by ‘surgery’ some of those people only get breast enhancements or facial feminisation.

@Sloejelly perhaps I'm so wrapped up in my own world that I hadn't considered that not all changing rooms are not cubicled and I don't generally think about others in changing rooms to have considered that aspext

With regard to the 'telling bit' perhaps that may be why.

Even female people with narrow hips have female Q angles meaning their gait is that of a female person not a male person.

Yes, a lot of people think Hayley Cropper when they think of transwomen. Unfortunately that's far from the reality. It's even considered transphobic to suggest that transwomen may have ANY dislike of their body.

Some men don't have an ounce of decency, though. Unfortunately, they don't have a tattoo on their foreheads announcing this.

Thank you for your self-reflection. It is unusual amongst the visitors to this board. I recommend the break it down thread - I hope someone links it for you.

@Helleofabore this is the type of stuff that i was after not the abuse and arguments as this is a fact that i was unaware of.

I get this is an emotive topic and that some people just dress as women to commit crimes against women or some sexual gratification but in my head 99% of trans people have had surgery

Can you give some examples of this anti trans hate that's all over Mumsnet? I read here often and I hardly see any anti trans posts. I see lots of pro women posts, and plenty of anti child medicalisation and sterilisation posts. I see many egs of women supporting other women they'll never meet: incarcerated women, disabled women, religious women, women who have been victims of sexual violence. I see posts which are pro safeguarding and others which are pro fairness in sports. But anti trans? Not so much.

@Sloejelly as i said in my OP, I'm on here to understand and i have learned some interesting things

Im sure others will still think I'm just here for am agenda and i will make my points as I see them but am always happy to reflect and learn and see others views and then think about their argument

Feel free to find that post and link it and ill have a read!

I agree, and also from the perspective of my own needs as a man. If a rare cubicle was taken up by a transman having a miscarriage, there might be no stinky cubicle available for the men who need it. If I was in urgent need, I might not be able to wait while I called for an ambulance and the creaking medical system did its stuff to help the unfortunate transman. IBS is nothing compared to a miscarriage, but it’s no joke.

@fromtheshires I believe we need third spaces. So male and female single sex toilets, changing rooms, prisons etc. plus a mixed sex/unisex/gender neutral option.

This option allows everyone dignity and privacy.

At the theatre I used a “gender neutral” toilet. It was the men’s rebadged. I know I was shocked to walk past men using the urinals and I’m fairly sure they were uncomfortable.

People lie about us here all the time, making out that we are horrible bigots who do everything they can to make trans people's lives difficult. We are always happy to put our point forward and debate with people but far too often someone will start a thread to call us names and then just throw insults rather than trying to have a conversation.

Op I used to think all transwomen had removed their penises too (let's be honest, the insertion of silicone tits is neither here nor there).

I thought that because a) I'd only ever met actual transexuals before who had definitely had bottom surgery and b) I thought that hating one's sex so much would inevitably lead to removing the one thing that is absolutely and utterly of that sex.

It really rocked my world view when I realised that almost all transwomen keep their penises. Ultimately it's a good thing surely to have less surgery! But it does make the safeguarding question more pertinent.

This would be ideal for all and I for one would use it. Sadly i think there would be little support

India Willoughby deliberately ignored the close by, convenient gender neutral toilets and went off to the much further away ladies. India was so pleased with Indiaself that India posted it on Twitter.

@fromtheshires I think the more we push this idea the more sense it makes. It means non-binary people have an option as do trans people. It means Transwomen can’t claim they need to use the women's as they are not safe in the men’s etc.

It will take time to achieve but there is no reason why this couldn’t be the way we chose to go.

I've been witnessing a transman in transition for the last couple of years. I see them every now and again as they work in a shop by me. When stood behind the counter they are at the point that if you didn't know then you might (assuming you hadn't yet been for your latest eye appointment) think that they were a particularly weedy looking short bloke with patchy beard growth and a voice that sounded like they still hadn't hit male puberty.

When they are stood in an aisle filling the shelves and all you can see is the back view...

Those hips don't lie!

@TWETMIRF not sure why your post got deleted. It was probably the single most informative thing on this thread.

I get people may come on here for trouble but to be honest, some of the replies on here haven't exactly been welcoming to someone trying to learn.

With regard to india Willoughby, fuck that I'm using whatever toilet is closest. Thats just pettiness in its highest form and doesn't help trans people at all.

To all the posters who keep saying about the anti trans posts and prove it, as someone unaware of the high percentage of people who chose not to remove genitals i can assure you most of the posts looks transphobic.

I suppose the next logical question would be if they had genital surgery would it be an issue to anyone? I get there are some who talk about sex vs gender identity but I'm interested to know thoughts

This is what the TRAs rely on. They want everyone to assume a transwoman is penisless and ballless because then they aren't assumed to be a risk, and how terrible it must be to hate your own body that much that you'd get you're penis chopped off/turned inside to create a hole that is permanently trying to close itself back up.

Once you know that most are still in fact fully intact men then the risk factor of that person in your head goes straight back up as you are sharing an women only space with a man who is fully capable of raping you if he so wished.

As of life isn’t fucking complicated enough …