Biological sex

[fromtheshires]

Ive been reading a lot of posts on the main boards where FWR keeps coming up about trans women are men and have a question so thought I'd ask it on here.

I am fully aware I'm going to get flamed before I ask it but it's a question that i actually think is important to help me understand this topic.

It usually ends up an argument about toilets and safe spaces on the main boards so my question is if a biological female to male trans person was to use the women's toilets what would the reaction be at seeing someone with muscles, tattoos and a beard in the female toilets because they are biologically female but look like a man? What about someone who was raped but attends a female only SA support group because they are biologically female?

And before you all begin, I'm no guardian journo, just interested in the responses to broaden my understanding

So you would see no problem with a couple of men following my 10 year old daughter into the local pool’s female changing room (communal, no cubicles) stripping off in front of her and for her to have to strip off in front of them?

I don't know the answer to be honest. In my head it's probably a privacy thing for urinals as they aren't in cubicles or something created back in the day when males/females were segregated more. That and mens toilets are usually grim in comparison.

What if a trans woman, who looked remarkably like the trans man linked, walked into the changing room you were in and said "oh it's OK I'm a woman" would you believe them?

If not, you'd be labelled a transphobic bigot.

There is a lot of it floating about.

Yes, i get this site is female centric but theres a lot of anti trans sentiment on the boards. The is mumsnet right wing thread is what brought me here mainly but there have been others

Can you explain what is anti trans about women wanting single sex spaces?

You started a thread claiming to want to understand (i.e. discuss in good faith), but you haven't really engaged with any of the questions, and just revert to calling us anti trans. I think your agenda is showing....

@Sloejelly it's been years since I've been in any public pool where it is communal changing rooms. They have all been gender neutral and cubicles.

Most men with an ounce of decency or common sense would also not stand next to a small child and strip for fear of being branded a sex pest.

Yeah that's the problem. Not all are decent. And now the ones who aren't have a fast pass into women's spaces just by saying words. I'm sure you can imagine where that can lead.

There are single sex communal changing rooms in the pool closest to me, no cubicles available.

As transwomen are men, how do you keep out the ones that don't have the decency not to get their penis out in front of children? It's happened more than once, this isn't hypothetical. When people have complained that it's inappropriate they have been called bigots and transphobic. Women and girls have been told that they shouldn't look when a man gets his cock out in what should be a female only area.

I'd probably do surprised double take, then realise from a closer look, voice and movement, that they are actually female. If they're in the miniscule fraction of trans men who actually do pass, they can just explain if questioned.

it's up to men to decide if transmen are welcome in their toilets, not women.

This. From a safety POV they might feel fine. From a privacy and dignity POV they might not.

But I think what is interesting is that transmen offenders are very very rare and placed in the female estate. Transwomen offenders are common and normally want to be in the female estate. I think it's fairly obvious why. Male offenders, I'd imagine, would be quite pleased to welcome a transman into the male estate. And not because they're super woke.

@HornyHornersPinkyWinky ah you've got me! Seriously, i have no agenda. I have no issue with people wanting female only spaces and can actually understand why some people want them as it gives a sense of security and safety. Believe it or not I have felt uncomfortable in places although it's been thankfully rare and I can handle myself.

@nothingcomestonothing i get that point entirely and can see that being an issue.

Most men with an ounce of decency or common sense would also not stand next to a small child and strip for fear of being branded a sex pest.

And therein lies the problem. A decent man who decided he'd like to be a woman would have the decency not to invade women's and girl's single sex spaces and strip in front of a small child. That just leaves the indecent men who want to be a woman and think it OK to use women only spaces, I don't think they have quite the same qualms about stripping off and making women and girls uncomfortable given they are already quite happy to transgress societal values and expectations.

Also, I know a few transmen. They don't pass. The internet is full of filters, lies and also, obviously, people with the money and support to transition as much as is physically possible. IRL teenagers cut their hair, wear hoodies and jeans, and that's the extent most of the time.

@fromtheshires

Most men with an ounce of decency or common sense would also not stand next to a small child and strip for fear of being branded a sex pest.

So the problem is getting caught?

Thats twisting my words and you know it. Not all men are sex pests and are aware of their actions and how they can be perceived by others.

This.

This is problematic and I get the issue here on both sides of the coin if surgery has not taken place to reconfigure genitalia to female.

As an aside, Im surprised that there are still changing rooms that are not communal cubicles in this day and age.

So OP, because as you point out, some transmen do pass as muscled tattooed shortarsed men (as opposed to transwomen, where passing in the flesh is really very rare) what are YOU suggesting?

(As an aside, I'm always surprised that so called allies are happy to talk about the concept of passing. I think it is a horrifically cruel idea and something of an oppostunist lie that was sold to the original transexuals back in the day. No doubt chasing that dream has lined the pockets of many a surgeon.)

I don't like to think I'm being ungracious, it's just that of all the reasons to pick you chose that one.

Perhaps you could expand on the other reasons why men changing next to girls isn't appropriate?

I wasn’t asking you about the pools you attend, they are irrelevant.

I was asking if it is ok for two men to follow my daughter into MY local pool’s female changing room which does not have cubicles.

So you think it is OK for them to expose themselves and watch her strip naked so long as they are standing ten feet away?

It's simple for me, not complex at all. Transmen who feel they pass as men, can make the individual decision to use the men's facilities. That's an individual choice and part of deciding to transition. Any risk is taken on by them only, and it doesn't affect women and women's facilities. If they feel they don't pass, then either mixed sex facilities or use the women's if they are still likely to be read as female. Any doubt, they should avoid using the women's facilities .

In any medical or prison setting or similar then it is appropriate for transmen to be treated as per their sex, for their safety and for appropriate treatment. In a medical ward setting, that's when individual side rooms would be appropriate for a passing transman.

Men and male people can therefore stay out of women's single sex facilities.

So again I will ask - what is 'anti trans' about wanting single sex spaces then? Since that is what we are advocating for here.

That by the way is enough to get us called transphobic bigots.

I am sure there are trans men that pass.

Also I am sure some women don't twig as easily as others.

My experience of trans men is they are remarkably short men, all with the same slightly odd pattern of beard growth, narrow hips and apparently mandatory ear stretchers.

Ok. But that doesn’t explain what you believe is anti-trans. Could you please give examples?

And if you think something is anti-trans, have you then considered fully whether what you consider anti-trans is women defining their rights and their needs based on sex that need to be prioritised over gender ?