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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Thread 3: A corpus-assisted discourse analysis of linguistic transphobia on Mumsnet

337 replies

VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia · 01/05/2024 21:33

In which we continue to discuss the Aston scrapists.

Mumsnet Corpus | Mumsnet

Not a TAAT, but a bit of googling as a result of a now deleted thread has led me to this: [[https://fold.aston.ac.uk/handle/123456789/18 https://fold...

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/site_stuff/5057903-mumsnet-corpus

OP posts:
Thread gallery
32
VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia · 02/05/2024 07:39

MaggieCalvert · 02/05/2024 07:32

I'm a long-standing, quite senior Aston academic (very different discipline though) & I've been following this with genuine embarrassment. I've created this shiny new MN account just to post on this thread, but have been around a long time.

I agree with much of what's been said already, including that this should never have got research ethics clearance (assuming of course that it did...), so I won't repeat that.

I just wanted to add some insider perspective, which I hope might be interesting/useful.

Apologies for the next paragraph sounding a bit like Aston PR. It's context. I will move on to something a bit more critical!

On the whole, Aston is generally very liberal. I'm GC (actively), & have never felt the need to hide my views at work. It's a very diverse community - lots of our students have difficult circumstances, & most academic staff work really hard to support students through issues like racism, financial difficulty & poor mental health. I've worked across HE, but I've now been at Aston a very long time, & nowhere else has been this apolitical. Everyone's just too busy dealing with shit, frankly, & there's a lot of it (some of which I'll come to)

Many courses have a compulsory placement year, and all have a technical/applied focus (even disciplines like History). This is because one of the things Aston likes to sell itself on is "usefulness" (in both teaching and research). I first came across the forensic linguistics work at Aston when I was at another university, & at that time, it was very much in this tradition - developing tools to keep children safe in online spaces, for eg. It strikes me that this particular PhD is an odd fit at Aston, for lots of reasons. However, i do work in a very different area, so maybe there's a whole ton of this type of thing going on & I'm just not aware of it.

Bits of the university are deeply, deeply sexist (HE is in general, IME, but Aston has a special brand of it). I can easily believe that it didn't occur to anyone involved (including female academics) that women posting here are also people. The misogyny at Aston is a whole other thread, but I absolutely think it's been a factor here, in the initial scrape and the uses to which the data has been put. We don't (generally) have issues with gender ideology harming women. We just have good old fashioned women-hating. It's like a little time machine (& has got worse since the VC came in a couple of years ago)

The VC himself is ruthlessly ambitious for himself and the institution. Having seen him in action, my guess would be that he's putting significant effort into protecting the university (I assume he's taken expensive legal advice). At the same time, I'm pretty confident those involved will be having a very hard time, even if that's being kept quiet. I doubt very much he's just waiting for it all to die down, but I also doubt he'll say much in public.

He wants people to talk about our graduate salaries, social mobility, contribution to the regional economy. He absolutely won't want people talking about an unethical study with significant methodological flaws!

I'm really proud of some aspects of what Aston does, & I work with some incredible people (genuinely the kind of people you would want your kids to be supported by if they were at university). I guess any big -ish institution will have its share of arseholes, & we definitely do. No one from Aston has covered themselves in glory here.

It strikes me that this particular PhD is an odd fit at Aston,

It's not just the PhD. It's that two blokes scraped the whole of Mumsnet without MNHQ's nor posters' consent.

OP posts:
MaggieCalvert · 02/05/2024 07:43

Yes, I get that.

Like I said. There are lots of people at Aston who don't think women are people (even when they're standing in front of then, much less when they're posting on the internet)

I'm not defending that or them, though I guess I have tried to defend some of what Aston is & does.

CityAllTheWayBooToVilla · 02/05/2024 08:00

MaggieCalvert · 02/05/2024 07:43

Yes, I get that.

Like I said. There are lots of people at Aston who don't think women are people (even when they're standing in front of then, much less when they're posting on the internet)

I'm not defending that or them, though I guess I have tried to defend some of what Aston is & does.

Interesting, Maggie.
I think that was shown by their surprise that "Mums"knew so much about the suffragettes. Wasn't that a paper by one of the original scrapers?

And yeah, internalised sexism by women colleagues. I assume what sounds like excellent support for students facing race and class issues helps tease out any internalised racism, classism etc. Time for a staff training module on internalised sexism. Or even - gender stereotyping?

CityAllTheWayBooToVilla · 02/05/2024 08:06

There was a young woman from Birmingham
Who thought all her brains must have worms in em
Then she read a paper
By a sneaky young scraper
And felt all intellectully affirmed again

VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia · 02/05/2024 08:10

CityAllTheWayBooToVilla · 02/05/2024 08:00

Interesting, Maggie.
I think that was shown by their surprise that "Mums"knew so much about the suffragettes. Wasn't that a paper by one of the original scrapers?

And yeah, internalised sexism by women colleagues. I assume what sounds like excellent support for students facing race and class issues helps tease out any internalised racism, classism etc. Time for a staff training module on internalised sexism. Or even - gender stereotyping?

No, that's a different researcher, who did ask permission, and whose work was misrepresented by the PhD student.

It's telling that Eden considered the adoption of suffragette imagery and colours to be non-linguistic expressions of transphobia. It's as if women having the right to vote is held to be transphobic.

OP posts:
CityAllTheWayBooToVilla · 02/05/2024 08:12

TheAutopsyOfMNCorpus · 01/05/2024 23:47

4 alll de Nick Caves out dare.

A thing of beauty

CityAllTheWayBooToVilla · 02/05/2024 08:13

VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia · 02/05/2024 08:10

No, that's a different researcher, who did ask permission, and whose work was misrepresented by the PhD student.

It's telling that Eden considered the adoption of suffragette imagery and colours to be non-linguistic expressions of transphobia. It's as if women having the right to vote is held to be transphobic.

Edited

Ah ok sorry, I did try to find it in the corpus corpus, but it's quite large ....

VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia · 02/05/2024 08:16

CityAllTheWayBooToVilla · 02/05/2024 08:13

Ah ok sorry, I did try to find it in the corpus corpus, but it's quite large ....

The paper is by Sarah Pedersen.

OP posts:
CityAllTheWayBooToVilla · 02/05/2024 08:19

OK ta

CityAllTheWayBooToVilla · 02/05/2024 08:21

I see my posts are not even due a Third. I will read the source material properly now 😬

TheAutopsyOfMNCorpus · 02/05/2024 08:36

CityAllTheWayBooToVilla · 02/05/2024 08:12

A thing of beauty

Ta verry muchlee.

GCLabRat · 02/05/2024 09:43

Vere wunz wuz a gendr crit ratty
Hoo was rendrd compleetly battie
Lisnin too tha dramer
Mayde by E Palmer
Cuz tha subjict she studdyd wuz nazsty

Hermmm, not me bezst wurk, but ize gut a bizzy day turday. Tha weel wunt tern itzelf!

purplebootlace · 02/05/2024 09:48

DONUT’S BLUES (to the tune of Gershwin’s ‘Summertime’ from Porgy and Bess)

Thursday now,
And I am still waitin’
Coffee’s brewin’
And I’m going to cry

Claude where are you?
This is all so frustratin’
Where is my fabric?
Don't walk on by.

It might be my hormones,
But I’m longing to hold you:
My parcel of t-shirts,
Claude too, if he will…

Post in my post box.
This middle-aged woman
Yearnin’ for a material thrill,
Yearnin’ for a material thrill.

GrimbutGerbil · 02/05/2024 09:52

CityAllTheWayBooToVilla · 01/05/2024 22:52

Popping on to say very much thanks to everyone for this thread series which brings me joy and rage in equal measure.

Can we have a t-shirt in city colours please? No-one could ever have thought claret and light blue go well together, they utterly don't - bleugh

The gerbils are a bit hazy on the subject of footballs. And hope that the parcels come soon. As they can't reach the letterbox, they have to get someone else to do it for them.

Dumbledoreslemonsherbets · 02/05/2024 10:18

VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia · 01/05/2024 22:12

For people new to this and wondering what this is all about: it's about the right to privacy and anonymity for every user on this site.

A timeline:

  • Two men from Aston University scraped the contents of Mumsnet for use in their forensic linguistics research and stashed it in a lab somewhere at Aston for other researchers to use.
  • Various researchers used that dataset without any Mumsnetters noticing because their article titles didn't have the word "Mumsnet" in, until...
  • ...a PhD student decided to mine the dataset for evidence of written transphobia with the intention of correlating it to real-world hate crimes, because of course correlation always proves causality... Hmm
  • ...and put the word "Mumsnet" into her presentation title, attracting the attention of a poster from FWR who was none too pleased to have her Grainger-test-passing legally protected beliefs libelled as "transphobia".
  • Some digging then revealed the earlier research outputs and the existence of the stored dataset, at which point the Site Stuff thread was created to inform MNHQ.

The data collection is against Mumsnet's Terms of Service and is likely to bring Aston into GDPR infringement because postings taken in aggregate could identify individuals and users had posted "special category" data such as health information.

The problem is therefore far bigger than FWR regulars being called names by a PhD student. Every poster on this site, including women weighing up whether to have an abortion and talking about their children's disabilities, has had all their posts hoovered up and stored in a form that makes it much much easier to search by anyone who Aston wants to give access to, so much much easier to comb through a user's posting history to look for identifying details that could out them in real life.

Thanks, great summary.

I would add that within Aston's illegally scraped data there WILL be posts or whole threads that have been subsequently deleted by MN because they were deemed to contain sensitive data that could potentially put the poster(s) at risk in real life and / or the poster have requested deletion (as is their legal right under GDPR / DPA).

Since deletions don't always happen straight away, I think it is beyond doubt that Aston will now illegally hold, and may have carried out research on, data that MNHQ themselves have deleted.

Everything Aston has done is illegal under GDPR / DPA 2018 and MN T&Cs / copyright law. but this is a whole other level of illegal and putting women at risk / not seeing women as deserving of human rights.

Women have the right to have their data removed after the fact of posting by MNHQ, but we have no mechanism for removing our data from Aston's database.

JustineMumsnet · 02/05/2024 12:22

Thanks all, for your patience. As many of you have surmised we’ve been in some back and forth with Aston Uni to try to establish exactly what’s gone on: what MN data they hold, how they obtained it, for what purpose, how it’s stored etc.

Whilst we have a number of concerns, it’s worth saying upfront that Aston is adamant that the dataset has never been used to attempt to identify individual posters and that is not the purpose of their research; and we have no reason to disbelieve them on that front.

That said, we do believe that Aston has behaved unethically and unlawfully by scraping our website without seeking prior permission and in breach of our copyright, to obtain two datasets for forensic linguistic research purposes. The first set was obtained in 2019 and entailed the scraping of a large volume of posts. The second (for the PHD student’s research) was obtained in January 2024 and involves a much smaller number of posts.

Aston University’s Intellectual Property Policy, as listed on the university website says:

“It is an infringement of copyright in a work to copy the whole or a substantial part of the work, whether manually, electronically or otherwise, without authorisation or licence from the copyright owner. Substantial is measured by reference to quality and therefore copying of even a small part could be an infringement. This is the case even if the work is freely accessible and available in the public domain, including online, unless a licence is clearly provided and the proposed activities fall with [sic] the scope of the licence.”

Mumsnet’s terms of use (though updated in Nov 23 to specifically prohibit scraping) have always stated clearly that “the web site and its contents are copyright Mumsnet, all rights reserved”

Mumsnet is a rich source of information and almost unique in being a large female-dominated online discussion forum - so we do appreciate why it’s very attractive to researchers. However, we are extremely careful about what research we will allow and who we permit to do it. We are more likely to consent to projects that elevate women’s voices, or research that could be used to design products, services or policies to make parents’ lives easier. Examples of research project we’ve consented to in the past are:

Developing models to assist the diagnosis of mental health conditions, such as postnatal depression, and the identification of individuals at risk. [Turing Institute]

Quantifying the real impact of the reality of lived experiences of women in the UK with regards to violence against women and girls. [Bolton University]

I very much doubt we would have agreed to the creation of a sandbox for forensic linguistics without assurances about how the data was being used and for what purpose. We certainly wouldn’t have agreed to the holding of the dataset for further research projects to be decided upon at the discretion of the University.

We also have concerns about Aston’s ethical approval process (which we have raised with the Vice Chancellor). Specifically, we do not believe that appropriate consideration has been given to the potential risk of harm caused by the PHD’s research to the Mumsnet website, its reputation and its community.

Consequently we have asked Aston University to immediately cease and desist all scraping activities, to immediately destroy both datasets and to provide a written assurance that they will refrain from any further unauthorised access or use of our content.

We will of course update you as and when we can.

EdithStourton · 02/05/2024 12:28

Thank you, @JustineMumsnet that is very much appreciated.

If they don't play ball, what would be the next step?
And is there any way of finding out exactly what they have done with the data - because I'm not sure I'd trust the word of an organisation that has acted in breach of its own intellectual property policy.

AlisonDonut · 02/05/2024 12:34

I think people will also need to know all 'reports' or 'studies' or anything has been already published so that users are able to find out what has been done with the data.

JustineMumsnet · 02/05/2024 12:34

EdithStourton · 02/05/2024 12:28

Thank you, @JustineMumsnet that is very much appreciated.

If they don't play ball, what would be the next step?
And is there any way of finding out exactly what they have done with the data - because I'm not sure I'd trust the word of an organisation that has acted in breach of its own intellectual property policy.

Next steps would be to pursue all available remedies, including legal ones to protect our rights. But I'm hopeful it won't come to that!

SqueakyDinosaur · 02/05/2024 12:40

There is an interesting post on the other thread about this from @MaggieCalvert who says she's an academic at Aston and has some comments about the prevailing culture there.

EggcornAcorn · 02/05/2024 12:42

JustineMumsnet · 02/05/2024 12:22

Thanks all, for your patience. As many of you have surmised we’ve been in some back and forth with Aston Uni to try to establish exactly what’s gone on: what MN data they hold, how they obtained it, for what purpose, how it’s stored etc.

Whilst we have a number of concerns, it’s worth saying upfront that Aston is adamant that the dataset has never been used to attempt to identify individual posters and that is not the purpose of their research; and we have no reason to disbelieve them on that front.

That said, we do believe that Aston has behaved unethically and unlawfully by scraping our website without seeking prior permission and in breach of our copyright, to obtain two datasets for forensic linguistic research purposes. The first set was obtained in 2019 and entailed the scraping of a large volume of posts. The second (for the PHD student’s research) was obtained in January 2024 and involves a much smaller number of posts.

Aston University’s Intellectual Property Policy, as listed on the university website says:

“It is an infringement of copyright in a work to copy the whole or a substantial part of the work, whether manually, electronically or otherwise, without authorisation or licence from the copyright owner. Substantial is measured by reference to quality and therefore copying of even a small part could be an infringement. This is the case even if the work is freely accessible and available in the public domain, including online, unless a licence is clearly provided and the proposed activities fall with [sic] the scope of the licence.”

Mumsnet’s terms of use (though updated in Nov 23 to specifically prohibit scraping) have always stated clearly that “the web site and its contents are copyright Mumsnet, all rights reserved”

Mumsnet is a rich source of information and almost unique in being a large female-dominated online discussion forum - so we do appreciate why it’s very attractive to researchers. However, we are extremely careful about what research we will allow and who we permit to do it. We are more likely to consent to projects that elevate women’s voices, or research that could be used to design products, services or policies to make parents’ lives easier. Examples of research project we’ve consented to in the past are:

Developing models to assist the diagnosis of mental health conditions, such as postnatal depression, and the identification of individuals at risk. [Turing Institute]

Quantifying the real impact of the reality of lived experiences of women in the UK with regards to violence against women and girls. [Bolton University]

I very much doubt we would have agreed to the creation of a sandbox for forensic linguistics without assurances about how the data was being used and for what purpose. We certainly wouldn’t have agreed to the holding of the dataset for further research projects to be decided upon at the discretion of the University.

We also have concerns about Aston’s ethical approval process (which we have raised with the Vice Chancellor). Specifically, we do not believe that appropriate consideration has been given to the potential risk of harm caused by the PHD’s research to the Mumsnet website, its reputation and its community.

Consequently we have asked Aston University to immediately cease and desist all scraping activities, to immediately destroy both datasets and to provide a written assurance that they will refrain from any further unauthorised access or use of our content.

We will of course update you as and when we can.

Thank you, Justine. Some difficult conversations have been had, I expect.

DrSoupDragonsFriend · 02/05/2024 12:42

Thank you @JustineMumsnet.

What were the exact dates covered in both sets of scraped data?

Could the data set held at Aston be downloaded for local use by researchers external to AIFL? If so, how is the reclaiming and deletion of that data going to be managed?

Has this been reported to the ICO?

Are you going to announce what has happened to everyone on MN? So far it's been contained mostly in the FWR threads.

GenderBlender · 02/05/2024 12:56

Thank you @JustineMumsnet. Really great to learn how the site has been used to support research. If you want any volunteers to help make recommendations on what research should and shouldn't be supported, I would be very happy to put my hand up.

Cheeky feckers at Aston.

EasternStandard · 02/05/2024 13:16

Great job mnhq and big thanks to the op who first brought this up