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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Thread 3: A corpus-assisted discourse analysis of linguistic transphobia on Mumsnet

337 replies

VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia · 01/05/2024 21:33

In which we continue to discuss the Aston scrapists.

Mumsnet Corpus | Mumsnet

Not a TAAT, but a bit of googling as a result of a now deleted thread has led me to this: [[https://fold.aston.ac.uk/handle/123456789/18 https://fold...

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/site_stuff/5057903-mumsnet-corpus

OP posts:
Thread gallery
32
Ereshkigalangcleg · 02/05/2024 14:09

If you're referring to the 2019 presentation Manchester Uni hosted the round table.

VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia · 02/05/2024 14:12

RethinkingLife · 02/05/2024 13:26

Yes, you are understanding that correctly, sadly.

Despite the clear T&Cs etc. What were the supervisor (Nicci MacLeod) and Tim Grant (Director of FoLD) thinking? Where was the ethics committee in this?

I look forward to further revisions to the upcoming IAFLL conference programme if any of the papers use the contested data scrapes.

https://www.aston.ac.uk/research/forensic-linguistics/iafll-regional-conference

NixxiJ still has that recently-instated massive trans flag on her TwiX, so I think I can safely interpret that non-linguistic sentiment as something along the lines of "I gain more in my career by signalling trans allyship through supervising this research than by telling my student to follow research ethics, and my student will carry the can if it all blows up".

Note that, it having now blown up, Eden Palmer (the student) has deleted her LinkedIn and TwiX profiles and cancelled at least one talk. It's very clear who's life is being adversely affected by this and who's isn't.

Nicci will be basking in the head-pats and "so brave, defying the evil TERFs" ally cookies when she has actually cowardly set her student up to take the fallout for this.

There's a saying in IT: "no one ever got fired for buying IBM". The current equivalent in academia is "no one ever got constructively dismissed for saying 'trans women are women'" and we've seen with Kathleen Stock and Jo Phoenix that the true bravery is in disagreeing with TWAW. There's nothing brave at all about telling a PhD student "yeah, go ahead, steal those women's data and then libel them as transphobes" and then putting a massive "trans rights are human rights"§ flag on your TwiX when caught.

§) And when did anyone on FWR say that trans people don't deserve the same human rights as everyone else anyway? It's the extra rights they want, which rely on the denial of women's rights, that we object to.

OP posts:
RethinkingLife · 02/05/2024 14:15

ArabellaScott · 02/05/2024 14:12

Meanwhile, today Aston Linguistics Institute released a promotional video.

I like that research. Aston Villa contracted them to do it, gave them explicit access for the forums etc. and the students presented their results back to Aston Villa.

Well-specified, ethical research. Senior staff have something to learn from whomever supervised those Masters students.

IncompleteSenten · 02/05/2024 14:16

VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia · 02/05/2024 14:12

NixxiJ still has that recently-instated massive trans flag on her TwiX, so I think I can safely interpret that non-linguistic sentiment as something along the lines of "I gain more in my career by signalling trans allyship through supervising this research than by telling my student to follow research ethics, and my student will carry the can if it all blows up".

Note that, it having now blown up, Eden Palmer (the student) has deleted her LinkedIn and TwiX profiles and cancelled at least one talk. It's very clear who's life is being adversely affected by this and who's isn't.

Nicci will be basking in the head-pats and "so brave, defying the evil TERFs" ally cookies when she has actually cowardly set her student up to take the fallout for this.

There's a saying in IT: "no one ever got fired for buying IBM". The current equivalent in academia is "no one ever got constructively dismissed for saying 'trans women are women'" and we've seen with Kathleen Stock and Jo Phoenix that the true bravery is in disagreeing with TWAW. There's nothing brave at all about telling a PhD student "yeah, go ahead, steal those women's data and then libel them as transphobes" and then putting a massive "trans rights are human rights"§ flag on your TwiX when caught.

§) And when did anyone on FWR say that trans people don't deserve the same human rights as everyone else anyway? It's the extra rights they want, which rely on the denial of women's rights, that we object to.

Edited

I interpret that banner change as a deliberate and targeted fuck you directed towards us tbh.

EmilyGilmoreenergy · 02/05/2024 14:18

Ereshkigalangcleg · 02/05/2024 14:09

If you're referring to the 2019 presentation Manchester Uni hosted the round table.

Thankyou

IDoNotConsentToAstonResearch · 02/05/2024 14:28

Hmm while I agree up to a point about the supervisor appearing to leave the student to carry the can, we don’t actually know what has gone on in the supervisor-student relationship here.
Sometimes students ignore advice. Sometimes they produce shoddy work. Sometimes they fail to do what they have assured the supervisor they will. The supervisor only has so much power; the university has processes to keep the student on track (an annual review usually, which will not have happened yet) and for all we know the supervisor might have been saying to the student for months, ‘Look, your research question doesn’t measure up, you need to rethink it radically or you won’t pass your annual review’ and thinking to herself, ‘bloody hell, she never takes any notice of me, maybe getting pulled to pieces at a seminar will make her sit up.’
While I still think the student should absolutely not be presenting publicly at this stage, and Aston/the supervisor has allowed that, we don’t know if it is taking place in a spirit of ‘yay, this is great work, she’s really going to put Aston on the map!’ or ‘hmm, I’m not really happy with this but it might be better for her to have the experience of presenting so let’s let her go ahead.’

GerbilStyle · 02/05/2024 14:31

I very much doubt it given the massive trans flag on Nicci's X page

IDoNotConsentToAstonResearch · 02/05/2024 14:31

Or equally, could be six of one and half a dozen of the other. Student not taking advice and supervisor not being sufficiently on the ball or strict with her.

IDoNotConsentToAstonResearch · 02/05/2024 14:33

GerbilStyle · 02/05/2024 14:31

I very much doubt it given the massive trans flag on Nicci's X page

The trans flag tells us about her values but not about the quality of her supervision.

DoNotScrapeMyDataBishes · 02/05/2024 14:34

IDoNotConsentToAstonResearch · 02/05/2024 14:33

The trans flag tells us about her values but not about the quality of her supervision.

The giant trans flag was the TwiX equivalent of my 12 year old shouting that she's not going to her bedroom... while angrily stomping to her bedroom.

Not the behaviour of someone demanding academic respect.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 02/05/2024 14:37

And when did anyone on FWR say that trans people don't deserve the same human rights as everyone else anyway? It's the extra rights they want, which rely on the denial of women's rights, that we object to.

It's just an inane thought terminating cliche. Women's rights are human rights as well, we're not less important.

VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia · 02/05/2024 14:39

IncompleteSenten · 02/05/2024 14:16

I interpret that banner change as a deliberate and targeted fuck you directed towards us tbh.

Edited

It was that too. And is sufficiently nob-specific that she can claim coincidence when challenged by Aston. The disclaimer "opinions my own" appeared at around the same time, I notice.

But Nicci still, afaict, has a secure job and research projects and a TwiX account from which to send coded "non-verbal misogynist sentiments" (to adapt a phrase from Eden's talk abstract) to Mumsnetters.

By contrast, Eden's entire PhD has just had its ethical approval process subjected to at least one FOI and its data set subject to a copyright holder's deletion request backed with the threat of legal action. Her PhD cannot continue, she has to start over or abandon it. Nicci's TwiX defiance is, in the light of that, nothing but virtue-signalling at the expense of her student. It demonstrates an "I'm alright, Jack" complete disregard for the fate of her (female and non-binary-identifying) student.

OP posts:
VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia · 02/05/2024 14:46

IDoNotConsentToAstonResearch · 02/05/2024 14:28

Hmm while I agree up to a point about the supervisor appearing to leave the student to carry the can, we don’t actually know what has gone on in the supervisor-student relationship here.
Sometimes students ignore advice. Sometimes they produce shoddy work. Sometimes they fail to do what they have assured the supervisor they will. The supervisor only has so much power; the university has processes to keep the student on track (an annual review usually, which will not have happened yet) and for all we know the supervisor might have been saying to the student for months, ‘Look, your research question doesn’t measure up, you need to rethink it radically or you won’t pass your annual review’ and thinking to herself, ‘bloody hell, she never takes any notice of me, maybe getting pulled to pieces at a seminar will make her sit up.’
While I still think the student should absolutely not be presenting publicly at this stage, and Aston/the supervisor has allowed that, we don’t know if it is taking place in a spirit of ‘yay, this is great work, she’s really going to put Aston on the map!’ or ‘hmm, I’m not really happy with this but it might be better for her to have the experience of presenting so let’s let her go ahead.’

Nicci put that trans flag up, replacing a vintage photo of a women's suffrage rally, when this story broke. This is not a coincidence, although you'd struggle to prove that in court, which is why Nicci went for the trans flag banner and not, say, a tweet about this scandal.

Nicci's profile at Aston still lists Eden and Eden's original PhD topic. Researchers update their own profiles.

Nicci supported this PhD.

They both came to Aston from Northumbria at around the same time as well.

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VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia · 02/05/2024 14:48

VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia · 02/05/2024 14:39

It was that too. And is sufficiently nob-specific that she can claim coincidence when challenged by Aston. The disclaimer "opinions my own" appeared at around the same time, I notice.

But Nicci still, afaict, has a secure job and research projects and a TwiX account from which to send coded "non-verbal misogynist sentiments" (to adapt a phrase from Eden's talk abstract) to Mumsnetters.

By contrast, Eden's entire PhD has just had its ethical approval process subjected to at least one FOI and its data set subject to a copyright holder's deletion request backed with the threat of legal action. Her PhD cannot continue, she has to start over or abandon it. Nicci's TwiX defiance is, in the light of that, nothing but virtue-signalling at the expense of her student. It demonstrates an "I'm alright, Jack" complete disregard for the fate of her (female and non-binary-identifying) student.

sufficiently nob-specific

That was meant to say "non-specific" but is a strangely appropriate typo.

OP posts:
AlexaAdventuress · 02/05/2024 14:58

Whilst I can't be sure what's in the supervisor's mind, it's entirely possible that, like quite a number of people in academia, she didn't see anything wrong with what the student was doing. I've come across people in academic roles who see the online world as being full of transphobic hate crimes and miscellaneous terfery. Moreover, some believe that it's high time someone put a stop to it. There'll be impassioned articles appearing in outlets such as 'The Conversation' about how all this discussion on MN is an 'assault on science', or 'right wing conspiracy theory' and how this reinforces their view that there should be ever more stringent state regulation of us all. That recent Scottish legislation didn't spring fully formed from the collective minds of the SNP, it reflects a much wider mindset on the part of the professional and managerial classes that plebs like thee and me are getting too big for our boots.

DogDaysNeverEnd · 02/05/2024 15:01

Is there any information on who is funding this or the previous research? It may be worth raising the issue of unethical data use with them as they should care that researchers are not adhering to GDPR. Not much point if it's self-funded though, hiding to nothing in that case.

EdithStourton · 02/05/2024 15:17

VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia · 02/05/2024 14:48

sufficiently nob-specific

That was meant to say "non-specific" but is a strangely appropriate typo.

And entertaining!
<Lowers tone>

RethinkingLife · 02/05/2024 15:28

That recent Scottish legislation didn't spring fully formed from the collective minds of the SNP, it reflects a much wider mindset on the part of the professional and managerial classes that plebs like thee and me are getting too big for our boots.

Matt Goodwin might describe those responsible for that legislation as the epistemic class, designing a world that they recognise and is utterly unfamiliar to others, at best, and completely isolated from the substantial proportion of the populace.

Drawn from: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Values-Voice-Virtue-British-Politics/dp/0141999098?tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-21

Britain is in the grip of a new elite, which has been rapidly losing touch with the rest of the country, setting the stage for a looming backlash among the masses.
If you want to understand why, over the last decade, Britain was radically reshaped by the rise of Nigel Farage’s national populism, Brexit and the post-Brexit realignment, symbolised by Boris Johnson, then you need to make sense of this elite.
Britain has always had an out-of-touch elite, of course. Henry Fairlie first talked about “the Establishment” in the 1950s, an Old Boys network of wealthy, right-leaning elites in the City who fill the Tory donor class and private members’ clubs on Pall Mall.
The old elite -clearly- still exist. It continues to wield enormous power over politics and the economy. But today, in Britain, as in many other Western democracies, the axis of power is now rapidly tilting toward a new ruling class —one that overlaps with the old elite but is distinct from it in important, under-appreciated ways.
Whereas the old elite was mainly defined by its wealth, inherited titles, estates, “small C” cultural values and, often, though not always, its lack of university education, the members of the new middle-class professional elite are defined by different things.
They were swept forward, mainly, by the rapid expansion of the universities, by their elite education at one of the most prestigious Oxbridge or Russell Group universities which, like them, have swung sharply leftwards over the past half century.
Whereas back in the 1960s left-wing academics outnumbered right-wing academics by a ratio of three to one, today it’s closer to eight to one, a symbol of how both the universities and the graduates they produce have increasingly swung left.
Unlike the right-leaning old middle-class and the Tory elite, over the last ten years the new middle-class graduate elite has shifted behind the Labour Party and other liberal left parties, such as the Liberal Democrats, the Scottish National Party, or the Greens.
In fact, had only Britain’s graduate class been eligible to vote at the last election, in 2019, then Jeremy Corbyn would currently be prime minister. And this shift is now being compounded by generational change; ask Millennial graduates how they voted at the last election and only one in five will say the Tories.
The rise of the new elite, then, reflects the rise of a powerful new ‘education divide’ in Britain and other Western democracies, a deep-rooted rift which is now pushing the elite graduate minority and the non-graduate majority firmly apart —economically, politically, culturally, and geographically.
Economically, the new elite are fond of portraying themselves as the oppressed and disadvantaged, the underdogs who are railing against the ‘real’ elite. But the reality is quite different. More often than not, they have been the real winners of globalisation and the transition toward a post-industrial knowledge-based economy.
For much of the last half century, the new elite, whose families often descend from the professional and managerial classes, benefitted far more than others from the shift toward a university-based meritocracy —a system which has increasingly whittled down the definition of ‘success’ to mean having a degree from the right university.
Shaped by their privileged family backgrounds, their educational qualifications, and their much greater ‘cultural capital’ —gained from their more immersive experiences in the Oxbridge and Russell Group college system— the new elite hoovered up most of the gains from Britain’s embrace of hyper-globalisation and a political economy which was rebuilt around them, which both demanded and rewarded their skills.
They’ve benefitted culturally, too. After flooding into the creative, cultural, knowledge and public sector institutions, becoming a new “epistemic class” which creates, filters and determines what is or what is not acceptable or desirable within the national conversation, the new elite watched the prevailing culture be completely reshaped around their far more socially liberal values, tastes, political priorities, and interests.
Increasingly, when they’ve looked out at the institutions and what they create -the television programmes, films, adverts, books, museums, galleries, columns, and the national conversation more broadly- they’ve seen their worldview staring back at them while millions of others struggle to recognise their worldview at all.
This is why the rise of Nigel Farage, Brexit, Trump, and Boris were so visibly traumatic and bewildering for the new elite. Until then, this culturally isolated and politically insulated group had largely had everything their own way.
At the same time, as academics have shown, their very status as highly educated, high-flying, liberal graduates has become central to their collective identity, giving them a powerful new sense of “class consciousness”, encouraging them to look down on the less well educated or the rising number of graduates from less prestigious institutions.
Increasingly, over the last decade, this has been driving what Michael Sandel calls the ‘politics of humiliation’, a palpable sense among millions of ordinary voters that they are now being cut adrift by a highly educated elite which not only hoovered up the economic gains but often rigged the system to favour their own group over others.
Whether reflected in the new elite bribing their way into America’s prestigious Ivy League colleges, the finding in Britain that it was mainly the children of the new elite who benefitted from the expansion of universities, or the repeated failure of the elite universities to devote anywhere near as much effort to helping children from the white working-class as they devote to those from minority backgrounds (as recently symbolised by Cambridge ignoring left behind white kids altogether), this sense that the deck has been rigged for the new elite has pushed many into populism.
And geographically, too, the new elite has been drifting away from much of the rest of the country, hunkering down in elite enclaves which is compounding these divides. Aside from their degrees, members of the new elite are also defined by their postcodes in the most affluent or trendy districts in London, the big cities and university towns.
They’ve consolidated their power not only by living in the most dynamic and prosperous epicentres of the economy, benefitting from buoyant housing markets and higher rates of growth, but are also more likely to marry other members of the elite graduate class while unfriending, blocking, and distancing themselves from people who do not belong to this class or who hold different political beliefs and values.
Almost half of all university students who graduate with a first-class or 2:1 degree from one of the most prestigious Oxbridge or the Russell Group are living in London within six months of graduating, while many others flock into the same parts of south Manchester, Bristol, Brighton, Sheffield. Increasingly, as much research shows, this is pushing apart the thriving, metropolitan and diverse centres from what geographer Christophe Guilluy, who forecast the rise of the Yellow Vests, calls “the periphery”.
It’s in Britain’s declining towns, rural areas and coastal communities, the areas filled with workers, non-graduates and pensioners which the new elite deride as “Little England” or “going nowhere” — where the backlash against them is strongest.
One reason why Labour lost the last election so heavily is precisely because the party, dominated by the new elite, had spent much of the preceding twenty years doubling down on the values and the voice of the new elite while ignoring the periphery.
This is underlined by the fact that, even today, the party has still not won the popular vote across non-London England since 2001, or that Labour strategists now openly confess they did not even bother to hold focus groups and speak to voters in many of these areas for close to twenty years. They just weren’t considered important.
This is not just about Labour, however. In recent years, the growing power and reach of the new elite has been just as visible on the right of politics, reflected in the likes of of Anna Soubry, Dominic Grieve, Sarah Wollaston, and many other culturally left conservatives who either opposed Brexit or now feel completely at ease with very high immigration, hyper-globalisation, and key aspects of radical progressivism.
Consistently, as surveys show, many of Britain’s MPs on both the right and left lean much further to the cultural left than millions of voters in the country, refusing to represent, recognise and sometimes even respect people who hold different values to the socially and economically liberal consensus which tends to dominate Westminster.
And now, today, it’s this deep and growing rift between the elite graduate class and everybody else which is giving rise to three new fault lines which have been reshaping our politics and country over the past decade and will almost certainly drive more unrest in the years ahead unless we can find a way of closing them.

https://www.mattgoodwin.org/p/rise-of-the-new-elite

Amazon.co.uk

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Values-Voice-Virtue-British-Politics/dp/0141999098?tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-womens-rights-5066453-thread-2-a-corpus-assisted-discourse-analysis-of-linguistic-transphobia-on-mumsnet

CityAllTheWayBooToVilla · 02/05/2024 16:00

ScrapeMyArse · 02/05/2024 13:22

If I've understood correctly, that's absolutely abhorrent that Aston facilitated the scrape of a female forum specifically for a PhD heavily biased against women.

Imagine a university specifically facilitating a homophobic PhD to scrape Gay Reddit or a racist PhD to scrape Lipstick Alley?

Yup that's what Justine said, isn't it?

"we do believe that Aston has behaved unethically and unlawfully by scraping our website without seeking prior permission and in breach of our copyright, to obtain two datasets for forensic linguistic research purposes. The first set was obtained in 2019 and entailed the scraping of a large volume of posts. The second (for the PHD student’s research) was obtained in January 2024 and involves a much smaller number of posts.

Blood-y-hell (excuse my French)
Absolutely outrageous.

AlexaAdventuress · 02/05/2024 16:49

Yes, @RethinkingLife that's the sort of analysis I was thinking of. And I say this as part of the liberal epistemic elite myself. Yet in some ways I can't really get on board with all its tenets. This was brought home to me shortly after the Brexit referendum when I was talking to a colleague and she opined that not only did this demonstrate the stupidity and racism of the UK population (of course), but that it might make her wine more expensive! She wasn't joking about the latter remark either. I felt really Maoist for a few minutes: Let's send these overprivileged intellectuals out to toil in the field and factories with the peasants! That'll wipe the condescending expressions off their faces. Even as a remain voter myself. Gender identity politics have also really shown me that I'm at odds with many of my colleagues, whose current small talk seems to involve casual denunciations of Hilary Cass and her report!

duc748 · 02/05/2024 16:56

That's an interesting piece, @RethinkingLife , and much I'd agree with. But a couple of dog-whistle terms, I thought.

In recent years, the growing power and reach of the new elite has been just as visible on the right of politics, reflected in the likes of of Anna Soubry, Dominic Grieve, Sarah Wollaston, and many other culturally left conservatives who either opposed Brexit or now feel completely at ease with very high immigration, hyper-globalisation, and key aspects of radical progressivism.

Very high immigration? Is immigration exceptionally high in the UK, or has it increased drastically in recent years? I've read a few pieces claiming, amongst other things, that 'obviously', people cannot and should not stand for uncontrolled immigration (with the strong hint that that was what we had in the EU). But that's just not really true, is it? AFAICS, for all the rhetoric of pols, immigration hasn't changed much. If anything, Brexit increased it.

https://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/resources/briefings/long-term-international-migration-flows-to-and-from-the-uk/#:~:text=The%20UK%20has%20experienced%20broadly,over%20the%20past%20few%20decades.&text=Net%20migration%20was%20unusually%20high,citizens%20coming%20to%20the%20UK.

I'm also generally suspicious of the term "white working -class", which I believe could just as well be replaced by "working-class" in most contexts. And the general idea that "somehow Brexit and Trump and Nigel Farage are good and necessary things which shook you out of your stupor". I don't think any of those three are good things at all, even though I agree with much of the piece.

MrsCarson · 02/05/2024 17:02

DrBlackbird · 01/05/2024 22:40

Aston presumably waiting this one out for it to die a quiet death?

😂They don't know the mumsnetters that well then!

INeedAPensieve · 02/05/2024 17:07

IDoNotConsentToAstonResearch · 02/05/2024 14:28

Hmm while I agree up to a point about the supervisor appearing to leave the student to carry the can, we don’t actually know what has gone on in the supervisor-student relationship here.
Sometimes students ignore advice. Sometimes they produce shoddy work. Sometimes they fail to do what they have assured the supervisor they will. The supervisor only has so much power; the university has processes to keep the student on track (an annual review usually, which will not have happened yet) and for all we know the supervisor might have been saying to the student for months, ‘Look, your research question doesn’t measure up, you need to rethink it radically or you won’t pass your annual review’ and thinking to herself, ‘bloody hell, she never takes any notice of me, maybe getting pulled to pieces at a seminar will make her sit up.’
While I still think the student should absolutely not be presenting publicly at this stage, and Aston/the supervisor has allowed that, we don’t know if it is taking place in a spirit of ‘yay, this is great work, she’s really going to put Aston on the map!’ or ‘hmm, I’m not really happy with this but it might be better for her to have the experience of presenting so let’s let her go ahead.’

This could have been a potential scenario had the supervisor not put up a massive Trans banner on her TwX profile after this whole situation was uncovered, which a PP says (and I agree) can be interpreted as a non linguistic FU to all of us on here who raised the alarm. It's just so childish and unprofessional.

mrshoho · 02/05/2024 17:12

Thanks for the new thread and thanks @JustineMumsnet for the update. Can Mumsnet verify whether there has been other instances unauthorised data scraping of site? This one was uncovered by chance and has taken Mumsnet by surprise. Do you have the technology installed to identify scraping of your datasets? Will Mumsnet be looking to tighten data security?