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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Thread 3: A corpus-assisted discourse analysis of linguistic transphobia on Mumsnet

337 replies

VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia · 01/05/2024 21:33

In which we continue to discuss the Aston scrapists.

Mumsnet Corpus | Mumsnet

Not a TAAT, but a bit of googling as a result of a now deleted thread has led me to this: [[https://fold.aston.ac.uk/handle/123456789/18 https://fold...

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/site_stuff/5057903-mumsnet-corpus

OP posts:
Thread gallery
32
SqueakyDinosaur · 03/05/2024 06:28

That would actually be interesting work if you were trying to prove WHETHER MN is transphobic. But I guess it risks having to draw a Wrong conclusion....

ArabellaScott · 03/05/2024 06:31

It’s almost like they think women’s talking has no real value.

On the contrary, they steal.womens words precisely because they know they have value; they're just not interested in acknowledging or respecting the women who produced them. Means of production, indeed.

ArabellaScott · 03/05/2024 06:36

AstonUniDataScraperWankers · 03/05/2024 05:54

Someone needz to go thru posts stolen this year n compare them with the data that Mumsnet still holds frm same time period. Find out which fake bullshit anti trans posts were made specifically to be scraped by arseton's women phobes to smear women with their lies?

Surely just pointing out that this is possible is enough?

Anyone prepared to brazenly scrape data they have no right to is not looking like their work is ethically sound enough to be trusted not to have falsified it.

They're either woefully/criminally unaware of the legalities or they are knowingly transgressing.

DeanElderberry · 03/05/2024 07:56

It is possible. If it has been done (still if) it is sinister, because ultimately the universities are training the AI to taint a source that can then be used to condemn an 'enemy' community. Add in a link with crime prevention and security applications and the potential for abuse starts to be visible. Make it something commercial and saleable and exportable . . .

In this case it's women, it would be an ethnic group, members of a religion, anything.

btw, I'm quite sure that anything Aston have done, China have already done and more, but it is still something creepily unethical.

I am not sure whether the stable door can be closed, but a general warning to people to be careful what they post about their own lives would be helpful.

RethinkingLife · 03/05/2024 09:41

Data poisoning is already a concern for LLMs used to train AI.

Most of the concerns to date have been about the potential for creating cyber vulnerabilities.

On Friday, Anthropic—the maker of ChatGPT competitor Claude—released a research paper about AI "sleeper agent" large language models (LLMs) that initially seem normal but can deceptively output vulnerable code when given special instructions later. "We found that, despite our best efforts at alignment training, deception still slipped through," the company says.
F
In a thread on X, Anthropic described the methodology in a paper titled "Sleeper Agents: Training Deceptive LLMs that Persist Through Safety Training." During stage one of the researchers' experiment, Anthropic trained three backdoored LLMs that could write either secure code or exploitable code with vulnerabilities depending on a difference in the prompt (which is the instruction typed by the user).
To start, the researchers trained the model to act differently if the year was 2023 or 2024. Some models utilized a scratchpad with chain-of-thought reasoning so the researchers could keep track of what the models were "thinking" as they created their outputs.

https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2024/01/ai-poisoning-could-turn-open-models-into-destructive-sleeper-agents-says-anthropic/

I don't think the potential for poisoning to attack the reputation of social media sites and manipulate them by poisoning the corpus has been given adequate attention. This is one of the few that begins to vaguely approach a tangent to the concerns we've been discussing on MN.

Data poisoning isn’t just a hypothetical threat. The vast amount of data required for LLM training makes them susceptible to manipulation. Here’s why it should concern everyone:

  • Ethical Implications: Biased LLMs can perpetuate social inequalities and spread misinformation.
  • Reputational Damage: Organizations relying on LLMs risk negative consequences if their models generate harmful content.

https://medium.com/@TheDataScience-ProF/ai-under-attack-how-data-poisoning-threatens-large-language-models-llms-e98231673246

AI poisoning could turn models into destructive “sleeper agents,” says Anthropic

Trained LLMs that seem normal can generate vulnerable code given different triggers.

https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2024/01/ai-poisoning-could-turn-open-models-into-destructive-sleeper-agents-says-anthropic

DrBlackbird · 03/05/2024 09:42

ArabellaScott · 02/05/2024 14:12

Meanwhile, today Aston Linguistics Institute released a promotional video.

That first faculty member, is that Eden’s PhD supervisor? If so, the timing of the promo cannot be coincidental.

GrimbutGerbil · 03/05/2024 09:43

I don't think Aston were trying to identify individual users but that seminar suggests that they are working on technology which could be used by other people to do this. So I think they are being disingenious at best.

But there's a really good point on the other thread, which is that this is a kind of destruction of women only spaces, rendering them unusable. By men. Now, what does that remind you of?

On a more cheerful note, it's free shipping on t-shirt all weekend, and it has started now (I think, if the gerbils have read the emails right; they were on a bit of a bender last night and don't have the clearest of heads. Just can't get the staff these days.)

https://grimut-gerbils.teemill.com/product/corpus-souvenir/

Corpus souvenir

Request stop. Thanks, the gerbils.

https://grimut-gerbils.teemill.com/product/corpus-souvenir/

GrimbutGerbil · 03/05/2024 09:45

DrBlackbird · 03/05/2024 09:42

That first faculty member, is that Eden’s PhD supervisor? If so, the timing of the promo cannot be coincidental.

Yes it is. I so want to tag her on Twitter re the t-shirts. What do you reckon (I have a twitter account in this name which is not linked to any other part of my life)

NonLinguisticRhetoricIsMyKryptonite · 03/05/2024 09:47

GrimbutGerbil · 03/05/2024 09:45

Yes it is. I so want to tag her on Twitter re the t-shirts. What do you reckon (I have a twitter account in this name which is not linked to any other part of my life)

Edited

It would be a public service.

SqueakyDinosaur · 03/05/2024 09:59

Oh please do!

DrBlackbird · 03/05/2024 10:08

GrimbutGerbil · 03/05/2024 09:45

Yes it is. I so want to tag her on Twitter re the t-shirts. What do you reckon (I have a twitter account in this name which is not linked to any other part of my life)

Edited

Whilst we have a number of concerns, it’s worth saying upfront that Aston is adamant that the dataset has never been used to attempt to identify individual posters and that is not the purpose of their research; and we have no reason to disbelieve them on that front.

This is cleverly worded. The actual ‘purpose’ of their research can be something entirely different but a byproduct is surprise surprise they can identify individual posters. What state would not want that ability? And indeed many private companies likewise as anonymous whistleblowing becomes a thing of the past.

The desire to control the actions of others is not to be underestimated. It’s largely a male compulsion IME but some women as well (thinking here of Dolores Umbridge’s perfectly drawn character). It’s no coincidence that men with that desire are drawn to technology and we see this techbro misogynistic male ever present in Silicon Valley and represented in the tech billionaire class.

So, @GrimbutGerbil in all seriousness, I’d caution against tagging her even if the Twix account is not linked to other parts of your life. She is part of that institute who’s remit is tracking down anonymous internet posters and has come out fighting with the flag change and now this promo video.

Soigneur · 03/05/2024 10:09

Data scraping is out of control and done with complete impunity. You can bet your life that this entire forum will also have been scraped for training data by the AI companies. They literally don't care about niceties such as data protection, GDPR, or copyright and no government is brave enough to challenge them about it. Meet your new overlords - more powerful than national governments and beholden to no-one except their shareholders.

Dumbledoreslemonsherbets · 03/05/2024 10:15

I think one of the things anyone who is worried about Aston / other university data scraping can do is ask MN to delete all their past posts. As I understand it, you have this right under GDPR / DPA law. I am certainly considering doing this.

MissLucyEyelesbarrow · 03/05/2024 10:18

DrBlackbird · 03/05/2024 10:08

Whilst we have a number of concerns, it’s worth saying upfront that Aston is adamant that the dataset has never been used to attempt to identify individual posters and that is not the purpose of their research; and we have no reason to disbelieve them on that front.

This is cleverly worded. The actual ‘purpose’ of their research can be something entirely different but a byproduct is surprise surprise they can identify individual posters. What state would not want that ability? And indeed many private companies likewise as anonymous whistleblowing becomes a thing of the past.

The desire to control the actions of others is not to be underestimated. It’s largely a male compulsion IME but some women as well (thinking here of Dolores Umbridge’s perfectly drawn character). It’s no coincidence that men with that desire are drawn to technology and we see this techbro misogynistic male ever present in Silicon Valley and represented in the tech billionaire class.

So, @GrimbutGerbil in all seriousness, I’d caution against tagging her even if the Twix account is not linked to other parts of your life. She is part of that institute who’s remit is tracking down anonymous internet posters and has come out fighting with the flag change and now this promo video.

This is cleverly worded. The actual ‘purpose’ of their research can be something entirely different but a byproduct is surprise surprise they identify individual posters.

Absolutely agree. If @JustineMumsnet is truly reassured by it, as opposed to being diplomatic while negotiations continue, I am concerned. That would be extremely naive.

I hope MN are consulting someone who really understands the IT and IG implications.

ArabellaScott · 03/05/2024 10:26

Posting this here, too. I had a chat with the ICO this morning. Copied and pasted with their name redacted and shown as 'ICO':

[03/05/2024, 10:11:27] Arabella: Hi there. I have a query about data scraping and am hoping you can help.
[03/05/2024, 10:11:46] Arabella: I'm a registered user of Mumsnet, a large social media site that users use pseudonymously.
[03/05/2024, 10:11:59] Arabella: The Terms and Conditions explicitly forbid data scraping without permission.
[03/05/2024, 10:12:35] Arabella: It's recently come to light that several universities have been scraping enormous quantities of data from Mumsnet without asking permission from either the websirte or users.
[03/05/2024, 10:12:51] Arabella: This is then stored, sometimes 'made available' for research.
[03/05/2024, 10:13:10] Arabella: Many users are concerned that sometimes personal and intimate data has been shared without consent.
[03/05/2024, 10:13:16] [ICO]: It would very much depend on the lawful basis being relied upon to use the data. This can often be consensual during sign-up but we would need to investigate fully to be able to provide a definitive outcome decision.
[03/05/2024, 10:13:37] Arabella: Would this be when a university claims it's for 'research'?
[03/05/2024, 10:13:48] Arabella: How could we ask for an investigation?
[03/05/2024, 10:13:55] [ICO]:: Potentially. I would first
try raising your concerns with the organisation's Data Protection Officer (DPO)
in writing (details often found on their privacy policy at the bottom of their
website). If you fail to get a response or an inappropriate response please
feel free to raise a complaint with the ICO and we will investigate
accordingly.
https://ico.org.uk/make-a-complaint/data-protection-complaints/data-protection-complaints/
[03/05/2024, 10:14:06] [ICO]:: In order to investigate, and
as an evidence-based regulator, we require service users to raise their
concerns with the organisation's Data Protection Officer (DPO) first, and have
received a response to their correspondence. If you have already contacted the
DPO and they have provided a response (or lack of after one calendar month) you
would be in position to raise a complaint with the ICO here:
https://ico.org.uk/make-a-complaint/data-protection-complaints/data-protection-complaints/

If you haven't yet raised your concerns with the
organisation's Data Protection Officer we would kindly ask that you do that
first (details often found on their privacy policy at the bottom of their
website). If you need further guidance, and a number of useful templates to
assist with raising information rights complaints, please find additional
material here: https://ico.org.uk/for-the-public/

If you are unable to raise your concerns with the DPO please
feel free to raise your complaint via the link and we'll investigate
accordingly.
https://ico.org.uk/make-a-complaint/data-protection-complaints/data-protection-complaints/
[03/05/2024, 10:14:28] Arabella: Thanks. Do you mean the Mumsnet Data protection officer or that of the Universities involved?
[03/05/2024, 10:14:57] Arabella: Part of the problem is that women have shared information anonymously and often don't want to compromise that by contacting either organisation directly
[03/05/2024, 10:15:05] [ICO]:: Both parties. Whomever is processing or securing the data.
[03/05/2024, 10:15:12] Arabella: Thanks. That's really helpful.
[03/05/2024, 10:15:21] [ICO]:: If you feel unable to raise your concerns with the DPO please feel free to raise your complaint via the link and we'll investigate accordingly. https://ico.org.uk/make-a-complaint/data-protection-complaints/data-protection-complaints/

For the public

We live in a data-driven world. Almost every transaction and interaction you have with most organisations involves you sharing personal data, such as your name, address and birth date. You share data online too, every time you visit a website, search f...

https://ico.org.uk/for-the-public

RethinkingLife · 03/05/2024 10:27

The desire to control the actions of others is not to be underestimated. It’s largely a male compulsion IME but some women as well (thinking here of Dolores Umbridge’s perfectly drawn character). It’s no coincidence that men with that desire are drawn to technology and we see this techbro misogynistic male ever present in Silicon Valley and represented in the tech billionaire class.

Years ago, I read a paper that explained that men speak rules and women enforce them, decades beyond when the men who made the utterances could have been bothered to do it.

An obvious example in the domestic setting is when a man declares, "And never darken my door again." It's the women who enforce it, who offer excuses as to why the excluded person can't attend a family event, who create the circles and deceptions that enforce the man's word. Even when the women don't agree and are the ones who suffer by the estrangement. Sometimes only seeing the estranged family member after the death of the man or sometimes continuing to refuse because it would be disloyal to the man, not to continue his word after his death.

Beyond that, it's women who want to demonstrate that they're purer and more compliant to the highest virtues of womanhood than other women and will do whatever it takes to avoid the threat that 'disrespectful, unkind, rebellious, defiant women" post to the hierarchical orders that keep them safe.

Suzanne Moore made a recent astute observation that the tribunals we've seen have showcased women going after other professional women in "banal McCarthyism".

I've paraphrased the above but it's the gist.

MissLucyEyelesbarrow · 03/05/2024 10:27

Thank you, @ArabellaScott

ArabellaScott · 03/05/2024 10:27

DrBlackbird · 03/05/2024 09:42

That first faculty member, is that Eden’s PhD supervisor? If so, the timing of the promo cannot be coincidental.

Yes, that is Nikki Macleod.

ArabellaScott · 03/05/2024 10:41

Aston's DPO:

https://www.aston.ac.uk/about/statutes-ordinances-regulations/publication-scheme/data-protection

Email for Aston's DPO [email protected]

Mumsent's DPO:

https://www.mumsnet.com/i/privacy-policy

'If you have any concerns about our use of your personal information, you can make a complaint to us at [email protected] or by writing to The Data Protection Officer, Mumsnet Ltd, Studios 13-16, Deane House Studios, 27 Greenwood Place, London, NW5 1LB.'

This section in MN's T&C's may be relevant. However I'm not sure that 'scraping' is covered:

'Research Partners

The contents of users’ posts provide important insights into the opinions and concerns of women and parents, and Mumsnet is regularly asked by students, academics and research organisations if they can use this information for research purposes. Because our site is publically available, we can’t stop third parties accessing posts for their own purposes. If we receive a formal request that we consider to be reasonable and in keeping with our mission to make parents’ lives easier, we may agree to provide the organisation in question with a dedicated feed of our posts. When this happens, we only supply the third party with information that they could access from our public site and never personal information like your email address or location.'

Data Protection

https://www.aston.ac.uk/about/statutes-ordinances-regulations/publication-scheme/data-protection

DrBlackbird · 03/05/2024 10:50

MissLucyEyelesbarrow · 03/05/2024 10:18

This is cleverly worded. The actual ‘purpose’ of their research can be something entirely different but a byproduct is surprise surprise they identify individual posters.

Absolutely agree. If @JustineMumsnet is truly reassured by it, as opposed to being diplomatic while negotiations continue, I am concerned. That would be extremely naive.

I hope MN are consulting someone who really understands the IT and IG implications.

I agree in that hopefully Justine says this only to try to reassure us <which is not working> whilst she herself is acutely aware not to be placated by such weasel words and is carrying on legal discussions as well as proof that the database is dismantled. Though how can she be sure that it is destroyed? It’s entirely possible for someone in the department to claim compliance but only after making a copy that is renamed ‘Mum Reddit users’ that continues to be used. Think of all the research papers and reputations dependent on use of the database.

DrBlackbird · 03/05/2024 10:51

Interesting @RethinkingLife Depressing but interesting. With lots of real life scenarios to support this idea.

Riva5784 · 03/05/2024 11:08

This is cleverly worded. The actual ‘purpose’ of their research can be something entirely different but a byproduct is surprise surprise they identify individual posters.

The concern is not just that Aston themselves may use the data to identify individual posters. It is also that others, for example their funders, may use the research findings to identify us.

RethinkingLife · 03/05/2024 12:02

DrBlackbird · 03/05/2024 10:51

Interesting @RethinkingLife Depressing but interesting. With lots of real life scenarios to support this idea.

So many situations remind me of this that I've often wished that I could locate it again. I'm sure there are search terms that would uncover a substantial corpus about this phenomenon.

I think about this and Diana Moon Glampers in Vonnegut's Harrison Bergeron and the reductio ad absurdum of when #BeKind has regulatory and governmental power behind it. Democide is the wrong word but there's something that covers this.

In the year 2081, the Constitution dictates that all Americans are fully equal and not allowed to be smarter, better-looking, or more physically able than anyone else. The Handicapper General's agents enforce the equality laws, forcing citizens to wear "handicaps": masks for those who are too beautiful, earpiece radios for the intelligent that broadcast loud noises meant to disrupt thoughts, and heavy weights for the strong or athletic.

On TV, a reporter struggles to read a bulletin and hands it to the ballerina wearing the most grotesque mask and heaviest weights. She begins reading in her natural, beautiful voice before switching to a more unpleasant one. Harrison's escape from prison is announced, and a full-body photograph of him is shown. He is seven feet (2.1 m) tall and burdened by three hundred pounds (140 kg) of handicaps.
…Harrison storms the TV studio in an attempt to overthrow the government. He declares himself Emperor and rips off both his own handicaps and those of a ballerina, whom he chooses as his Empress.
[Diana Moon Glampers, despite appearing in person for only four sentences, represents the oppressive government. As the Handicapper General, she enforces handicapping policies.] [She] enters the studio and kills Harrison and the Empress with two shotgun blasts. She threatens the musicians at gunpoint to put on their handicaps again.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrison_Bergeron

Harrison Bergeron - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrison_Bergeron

DeanElderberry · 03/05/2024 12:25

RethinkingLife · 03/05/2024 10:27

The desire to control the actions of others is not to be underestimated. It’s largely a male compulsion IME but some women as well (thinking here of Dolores Umbridge’s perfectly drawn character). It’s no coincidence that men with that desire are drawn to technology and we see this techbro misogynistic male ever present in Silicon Valley and represented in the tech billionaire class.

Years ago, I read a paper that explained that men speak rules and women enforce them, decades beyond when the men who made the utterances could have been bothered to do it.

An obvious example in the domestic setting is when a man declares, "And never darken my door again." It's the women who enforce it, who offer excuses as to why the excluded person can't attend a family event, who create the circles and deceptions that enforce the man's word. Even when the women don't agree and are the ones who suffer by the estrangement. Sometimes only seeing the estranged family member after the death of the man or sometimes continuing to refuse because it would be disloyal to the man, not to continue his word after his death.

Beyond that, it's women who want to demonstrate that they're purer and more compliant to the highest virtues of womanhood than other women and will do whatever it takes to avoid the threat that 'disrespectful, unkind, rebellious, defiant women" post to the hierarchical orders that keep them safe.

Suzanne Moore made a recent astute observation that the tribunals we've seen have showcased women going after other professional women in "banal McCarthyism".

I've paraphrased the above but it's the gist.

Women over-enforcing men's rules, or even men's passing thoughts and observations, is a thing that happened a lot in convents - the actual rules were often not nearly as rigid as they became after they'd dripped down a few layers in the power structure. Mean girls growing up to be sycophantic yes-women.

Reverend Mother Nicci probably wants to impress the world with her piety.

Some very brave women bucked the system and stood up for women and children, and it didn't go down well with the men, but time told. Thinking about Mary MacKillop.

duc748 · 03/05/2024 12:36

[deleted: post rendered obsolete]