Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Thread 3: A corpus-assisted discourse analysis of linguistic transphobia on Mumsnet

337 replies

VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia · 01/05/2024 21:33

In which we continue to discuss the Aston scrapists.

Mumsnet Corpus | Mumsnet

Not a TAAT, but a bit of googling as a result of a now deleted thread has led me to this: [[https://fold.aston.ac.uk/handle/123456789/18 https://fold...

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/site_stuff/5057903-mumsnet-corpus

OP posts:
Thread gallery
32
DrSoupDragonsFriend · 02/05/2024 17:23

mrshoho · 02/05/2024 17:12

Thanks for the new thread and thanks @JustineMumsnet for the update. Can Mumsnet verify whether there has been other instances unauthorised data scraping of site? This one was uncovered by chance and has taken Mumsnet by surprise. Do you have the technology installed to identify scraping of your datasets? Will Mumsnet be looking to tighten data security?

Thanks @mrshoho , I'd meant to ask about increased security for data too.

AlexaAdventuress · 02/05/2024 17:24

Yes @duc748 I'm not seeking to endorse Matt Goodwin's social conservatism on a number of issues, but I think there's something in the pattern of divisions he describes. This kind of critique is also emerging from the left, fortunately. There was an excellent quote somebody posted on here from the Communist Party about sex and gender the other day, and where the online world is concerned I'm rather taken by Yanis Varoufakis's notion of 'technofeudalism' too. So I don't think the Matt Goodwins and Toby Youngs of this world have all the good lines.

BoreOfWhabylon · 02/05/2024 17:49

Thank you @JustineMumsnet, and thanks to all the hugely knowledgeable and informative posters too.
I suspect Aston, like so many before it, has underestimated Mumsnet and Mumsnetters.
Big mistake. Huge.

PrunellaMossop · 02/05/2024 18:20

@MaggieCalvert , thanks for your post. I hope you'll get support from any other embarrassed, GC Aston employees or students who are watching this thread. For your own job security, just make sure that they are who they say they are before you reply. I'm glad you yourself have rewarding work and some brilliant colleagues. Long may that continue.

And that's the thing. These men (and a few women) from Aston who have stolen data from Mumsnet are not just unaware that they are dealing with real people, they also don't realise that the women posting here might be colleagues, maybe even from their own departments, or perhaps even their own wives, partners, mothers or daughters: women who have been careful to cover their tracks because they are wanting a space to chat away from you. Researchers may be stealing from their own backyard.

And some of those Aston men may have not noticed, because of their own sexism, the very articulate and intelligent way women here have been employing a great deal of common sense and critical thinking skills. There's a wide range of academic, research and professional expertise in our ranks which is why the early threads on Aston's actions filled up so quickly with highly relevant information, some of it quite specific to AIFL's research. And we know that there are well known women who post incognito on these forums, not just journalists, campaigners and writers, but possibly politicians and lawyers and maybe even people who make decisions about funding your organisation. You don’t know who is contributing, observing, and taking note.

Aston, I hope you do the decent thing. Firstly, by doing what Justine has asked you to do. Then apologise to Mumsnet users. Review the entire ethics and approval system for your research projects. Challenge each other to do what's right and appoint staff who act in a responsible, adult way. It would be amazing if you could be brave enough to share with the wider forensic linguistics world where you went wrong here, and why. Science relies on researchers being honest about mistakes and being open about sharing them so that everyone learns. And, as a last thought, please can you ask your HR department to arrange some basic training for senior staff which focuses exclusively on understanding women’s rights and sexism - and, by 'women', that means 'adult human females'. Thank you.

Crankywiddershins · 02/05/2024 18:32

PrunellaMossop · 02/05/2024 18:20

@MaggieCalvert , thanks for your post. I hope you'll get support from any other embarrassed, GC Aston employees or students who are watching this thread. For your own job security, just make sure that they are who they say they are before you reply. I'm glad you yourself have rewarding work and some brilliant colleagues. Long may that continue.

And that's the thing. These men (and a few women) from Aston who have stolen data from Mumsnet are not just unaware that they are dealing with real people, they also don't realise that the women posting here might be colleagues, maybe even from their own departments, or perhaps even their own wives, partners, mothers or daughters: women who have been careful to cover their tracks because they are wanting a space to chat away from you. Researchers may be stealing from their own backyard.

And some of those Aston men may have not noticed, because of their own sexism, the very articulate and intelligent way women here have been employing a great deal of common sense and critical thinking skills. There's a wide range of academic, research and professional expertise in our ranks which is why the early threads on Aston's actions filled up so quickly with highly relevant information, some of it quite specific to AIFL's research. And we know that there are well known women who post incognito on these forums, not just journalists, campaigners and writers, but possibly politicians and lawyers and maybe even people who make decisions about funding your organisation. You don’t know who is contributing, observing, and taking note.

Aston, I hope you do the decent thing. Firstly, by doing what Justine has asked you to do. Then apologise to Mumsnet users. Review the entire ethics and approval system for your research projects. Challenge each other to do what's right and appoint staff who act in a responsible, adult way. It would be amazing if you could be brave enough to share with the wider forensic linguistics world where you went wrong here, and why. Science relies on researchers being honest about mistakes and being open about sharing them so that everyone learns. And, as a last thought, please can you ask your HR department to arrange some basic training for senior staff which focuses exclusively on understanding women’s rights and sexism - and, by 'women', that means 'adult human females'. Thank you.

Edited

This!

I'd add, don't blame the PhD student. They should have had some support before things got to this stage.

AlexaAdventuress · 02/05/2024 19:17

I'm sure that the story is being written somewhere (if not already published) that a poor innocent PhD student has been hounded out of they/their studies by gangs of marauding terfs. Look at all this dreadful transphobia, attacks on science, need more regulation, researchers need protection from this online abuse - the phrases just trip off the tongue. The student and their supervisors probably didn't think they were doing anything wrong. From their point of view the fact that this discussion exists at all is probably a transphobic hate crime in its own right!

IncompleteSenten · 02/05/2024 19:19

Im quite sure they'll do their best to spin it that way.

Crankywiddershins · 02/05/2024 19:30

The second (for the PHD student’s research) was obtained in January 2024 and involves a much smaller number of posts.

So the PhD student knew the previous scrape had been done and who to ask to do another one? And who authorised the second one? It's quite a leap from "linguistic transphobia 2008-23" to "a targeted illegal data scrape of a short period of time that could include deliberately inserted trolling that proves the student's starting question"

CityAllTheWayBooToVilla · 02/05/2024 19:54

Aston scrapers, take good care
Mumsnet eyes are everywhere
Lawyer, funder, colleague, friend
We know just which rules you bend.

CityAllTheWayBooToVilla · 02/05/2024 19:59

"Do you think you know my mind?
Are you sure what you will find?"
"Yes! I know you hate the T!
Read this post and you will see!"
"Aston scraper have a care
Are you sure who wrote that there?
Might your clever language drone
Spot the author close to home?"

INeedAPensieve · 02/05/2024 20:12

Oh Aston, Aston, you've made mistakes,

But never mind because we've upped the stakes,

Scrape and trawl with all your might,

You gave us all a big big fright,

Never fear @JustineMumsnet is here,

She'll get all of this sorted alright,

Remember though before you go,

Underestimate Mumsnet by stooping so low,

You'll get a shock make no mistake,

We are powerful women who will make you quake.

INeedAPensieve · 02/05/2024 20:12

Apologies that was pretty poor but I've had a few wines 😅

CityAllTheWayBooToVilla · 02/05/2024 20:12

Aston scrapers, come to mother
You are in a spot of bother
Now's the time to time to own your shit
Tell your colleagues what you did
Tell them women's brains are strong
(You should have known that all along)
Tell them women aren't a field
Ground to plough or words to steal
And have a think on why we might
Be very keen on women's rights
What are women? Mothers know
Your mother was one - ain't that so?
So now. Do what the gerbil said
Put Foucault down, and GO TO BED!

CityAllTheWayBooToVilla · 02/05/2024 20:14

Many thanks 🙏 🙏 to the inspiring posters above, I was feeling a bit tingly but had nothing of my own to add, hence the doggerel.

INeedAPensieve · 02/05/2024 20:15

Ah amazing poem @CityAllTheWayBooToVilla I'm giving up, mine was shite sorry. Motherhood, middle age and wine have fudged my brain! Oh where is the young girl who got the English prize at school???? 😂

CityAllTheWayBooToVilla · 02/05/2024 20:20

Ah she'll be in there somewhere @INeedAPensieve . I never won any prizes - though Im still smarting about coming second in a french competition 😠 And it went to penalties 😭😭

INeedAPensieve · 02/05/2024 20:53

Ah I was totally pants at French, at all languages really. I wish I wasn't it would be great to just know other languages, but sadly not.

Karensalright · 02/05/2024 21:08

Not caught up yet, still on thread one, but just to say i am thrilled that my reference to penis nuggets is considered as transphobic.

<Snicker>

Fame at last.

GerbilStyle · 02/05/2024 21:33

I got my T shirt hurray. It's a bit in the large side so I'd suggest other fashion forward gerbils go for a size down to their usual size.

Thread 3: A corpus-assisted discourse analysis of linguistic transphobia on Mumsnet
NotBadConsidering · 02/05/2024 22:05

I would actually like to see the paper/presentation, or a least someone see it and report back. It would be fascinating to see how anyone could conclude that crimes have been committed by people posting here (what crime?) and that they’re sufficiently motivated by hate to qualify as hate crimes. Maybe a MNHQ lawyer could read it.

MissLucyEyelesbarrow · 02/05/2024 22:19

Whilst we have a number of concerns, it’s worth saying upfront that Aston is adamant that the dataset has never been used to attempt to identify individual posters and that is not the purpose of their research; and we have no reason to disbelieve them on that front.

Have Aston conducted an audit, and established exactly how the data was used, every time it has been accessed, and has it also proved that the data has not been copied?

If not, it can't possibly know whether or not it has been used to identify individuals. Subsets of the data may well have been used to try to identify MNetters.

GrimbutGerbil · 02/05/2024 23:21

On the other thread someone has found two more papers based on scraped data, from two other universities.

It’s almost like they think women’s talking has no real value.

T shirt looks lovely though. And I think sizing varies between styles. Or I am a fatter gerbil than I used to be

SqueakyDinosaur · 02/05/2024 23:31

Women talking is useful for research, in exactly the same way as whales' sonar communications are useful for research.

As Natalie Haynes and Armando Ianucci say in this programme - "Women! Almost the same thing as people!" https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b091w8h9

BBC Radio 4 - Natalie Haynes Stands Up for the Classics, Series 3, Juvenal

Natalie Haynes stands up for Roman satirist Juvenal. With Armando Iannucci.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b091w8h9

VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia · 03/05/2024 01:00

SqueakyDinosaur · 02/05/2024 23:31

Women talking is useful for research, in exactly the same way as whales' sonar communications are useful for research.

As Natalie Haynes and Armando Ianucci say in this programme - "Women! Almost the same thing as people!" https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b091w8h9

I suspect the more Extinction Rebellion end of the research establishment have considerably more respect for whales than they do for women.

OP posts:
AstonUniDataScraperWankers · 03/05/2024 05:54

Someone needz to go thru posts stolen this year n compare them with the data that Mumsnet still holds frm same time period. Find out which fake bullshit anti trans posts were made specifically to be scraped by arseton's women phobes to smear women with their lies?