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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Thread 3: A corpus-assisted discourse analysis of linguistic transphobia on Mumsnet

337 replies

VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia · 01/05/2024 21:33

In which we continue to discuss the Aston scrapists.

Mumsnet Corpus | Mumsnet

Not a TAAT, but a bit of googling as a result of a now deleted thread has led me to this: [[https://fold.aston.ac.uk/handle/123456789/18 https://fold...

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/site_stuff/5057903-mumsnet-corpus

OP posts:
Thread gallery
32
DrTWETMIRF · 01/05/2024 21:42

I'll put out the fuck off Aston uni signs while I'm here

JanesLittleGirl · 01/05/2024 22:03

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia · 01/05/2024 22:12

For people new to this and wondering what this is all about: it's about the right to privacy and anonymity for every user on this site.

A timeline:

  • Two men from Aston University scraped the contents of Mumsnet for use in their forensic linguistics research and stashed it in a lab somewhere at Aston for other researchers to use.
  • Various researchers used that dataset without any Mumsnetters noticing because their article titles didn't have the word "Mumsnet" in, until...
  • ...a PhD student decided to mine the dataset for evidence of written transphobia with the intention of correlating it to real-world hate crimes, because of course correlation always proves causality... Hmm
  • ...and put the word "Mumsnet" into her presentation title, attracting the attention of a poster from FWR who was none too pleased to have her Grainger-test-passing legally protected beliefs libelled as "transphobia".
  • Some digging then revealed the earlier research outputs and the existence of the stored dataset, at which point the Site Stuff thread was created to inform MNHQ.

The data collection is against Mumsnet's Terms of Service and is likely to bring Aston into GDPR infringement because postings taken in aggregate could identify individuals and users had posted "special category" data such as health information.

The problem is therefore far bigger than FWR regulars being called names by a PhD student. Every poster on this site, including women weighing up whether to have an abortion and talking about their children's disabilities, has had all their posts hoovered up and stored in a form that makes it much much easier to search by anyone who Aston wants to give access to, so much much easier to comb through a user's posting history to look for identifying details that could out them in real life.

OP posts:
parietal · 01/05/2024 22:28

Thanks for the summary. Is there any more from MumsnetHQ on this?

JanesLittleGirl · 01/05/2024 22:30

VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia · 01/05/2024 22:12

For people new to this and wondering what this is all about: it's about the right to privacy and anonymity for every user on this site.

A timeline:

  • Two men from Aston University scraped the contents of Mumsnet for use in their forensic linguistics research and stashed it in a lab somewhere at Aston for other researchers to use.
  • Various researchers used that dataset without any Mumsnetters noticing because their article titles didn't have the word "Mumsnet" in, until...
  • ...a PhD student decided to mine the dataset for evidence of written transphobia with the intention of correlating it to real-world hate crimes, because of course correlation always proves causality... Hmm
  • ...and put the word "Mumsnet" into her presentation title, attracting the attention of a poster from FWR who was none too pleased to have her Grainger-test-passing legally protected beliefs libelled as "transphobia".
  • Some digging then revealed the earlier research outputs and the existence of the stored dataset, at which point the Site Stuff thread was created to inform MNHQ.

The data collection is against Mumsnet's Terms of Service and is likely to bring Aston into GDPR infringement because postings taken in aggregate could identify individuals and users had posted "special category" data such as health information.

The problem is therefore far bigger than FWR regulars being called names by a PhD student. Every poster on this site, including women weighing up whether to have an abortion and talking about their children's disabilities, has had all their posts hoovered up and stored in a form that makes it much much easier to search by anyone who Aston wants to give access to, so much much easier to comb through a user's posting history to look for identifying details that could out them in real life.

Thank you for your intelligent and informative post. Much more helpful than my snarl.

INeedAPensieve · 01/05/2024 22:35

An excellent summary there, thank you OP for the third thread.

I await more information about this and will be curious as to how this will play out.

I'm assuming there have been no further updates since the previous thread and the thread on site stuff? I hope MNHQ fight this.

DrBlackbird · 01/05/2024 22:40

Aston presumably waiting this one out for it to die a quiet death?

VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia · 01/05/2024 22:41

I exceeded the time limit for editing my summary. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZUfxdLstIOc&t=13318 is where the researchers talk about how some Mumsnetters discuss fertility treatment, to a snigger from someone in the audience. They knew that they were collecting special category personal data.

Forensic Linguistics Roundtable Event

Welcome to the 1st Roundtable on Practices and Standards in Forensic Authorship Analysis at the University of Manchester. This event is supported by the Inte...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?t=13318&v=ZUfxdLstIOc

OP posts:
Talulahalula · 01/05/2024 22:42

I would like to have something helpful or witty to say but I don’t so I will just say thank you for the new thread.

VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia · 01/05/2024 22:42

DrBlackbird · 01/05/2024 22:40

Aston presumably waiting this one out for it to die a quiet death?

There's a minimum of two FOIs served on Aston about this because there's two on What Do They Know? and people can also submit them privately.

OP posts:
CityAllTheWayBooToVilla · 01/05/2024 22:52

Popping on to say very much thanks to everyone for this thread series which brings me joy and rage in equal measure.

Can we have a t-shirt in city colours please? No-one could ever have thought claret and light blue go well together, they utterly don't - bleugh

CityAllTheWayBooToVilla · 01/05/2024 22:53

[possibly being a bit unfair on a blameless football club here]

Ereshkigalangcleg · 01/05/2024 23:04

Thank you for the new thread @VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia Flowers

JanesLittleGirl · 01/05/2024 23:05

CityAllTheWayBooToVilla · 01/05/2024 22:52

Popping on to say very much thanks to everyone for this thread series which brings me joy and rage in equal measure.

Can we have a t-shirt in city colours please? No-one could ever have thought claret and light blue go well together, they utterly don't - bleugh

Chim chimminy chim chimminy
Chim chim cheroo
I hate the bastards
In claret and blue.

DrSoupDragonsFriend · 01/05/2024 23:06

OP, thank you. That's a great summary.

For anyone who's braved reading back over thread 2 and was baffled by it, can I add a post-script to OP's explanation?

There was a lot of playing around with posting unusual spellings, poems, translations into many languages etc. with a view to making the identification of multiple posters difficult and the scraping of that new data, should it ever happen, a nuisance to use for research. It was a protest, and the creativity may, or may not, continue here (I can hazard a guess).

There was also a shop set up with some excellent merchandise such as t-shirts and mugs linked to gerbils - don't ask, just read Thread 2, page 21 onwards if you want to know more. Any small profits are going to GC worthy causes.

Edited to say: spoke too soon, creativity has resumed 😁

CityAllTheWayBooToVilla · 01/05/2024 23:10

Claret's a colour
Football is a game
But if your name's Villa
Your methodology's lame

CityAllTheWayBooToVilla · 01/05/2024 23:11

@JanesLittleGirl I think you win! 😂

TheAutopsyOfMNCorpus · 01/05/2024 23:47

4 alll de Nick Caves out dare.

Thread 3: A corpus-assisted discourse analysis of linguistic transphobia on Mumsnet
VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia · 01/05/2024 23:55

CityAllTheWayBooToVilla · 01/05/2024 23:10

Claret's a colour
Football is a game
But if your name's Villa
Your methodology's lame

Aston Uni are unrelated to Aston Villa other than by name and geographical proximity.

But on the football theme: (to tune of Come Bye Yarr)

🎵 We said NO, Aston, we said NO.
We said NO, Aston, we said NO.
We said NO, Aston, we said NO.
Oh Aston, we said NO. 🎵

OP posts:
ThreeEggOmlette · 02/05/2024 00:13

Unless it turns out Emi Martinez is scraping our data, can we leave Villa alone please?

Great summary Vito 👍🏼

AstonVillains · 02/05/2024 04:52

Continuing the musical theme (to the tune of Camptown Ladies)

🎵The Mumsnet Ladies sing this song
Doo-dah doo-dah
Scraping all our posts is wrong
Oh de-doo-dah-day

Aston you are shite
Please just go away
We all hope Justine sues you all
Better delete them today🎵

AlisonDonut · 02/05/2024 06:34

I'm just a middle aged woman, sitting, waiting for a man named Claude, to insert fabric into my postbox.

AstonIsBeingUnreasonable · 02/05/2024 07:13

AlisonDonut · 02/05/2024 06:34

I'm just a middle aged woman, sitting, waiting for a man named Claude, to insert fabric into my postbox.

A long time ago*, on a forum far far away, a comment like that would result in a flurry of Carry On film gifs, to indicate that they'd spotted an innuendo, intentional or otherwise. This has definitely rubbed off on me.

*Well, not that long ago to be honest.

EdithStourton · 02/05/2024 07:26

VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia · 01/05/2024 22:41

I exceeded the time limit for editing my summary. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZUfxdLstIOc&t=13318 is where the researchers talk about how some Mumsnetters discuss fertility treatment, to a snigger from someone in the audience. They knew that they were collecting special category personal data.

Bastards! I missed that.

Thenk yew 4 nyew fred.

MaggieCalvert · 02/05/2024 07:32

I'm a long-standing, quite senior Aston academic (very different discipline though) & I've been following this with genuine embarrassment. I've created this shiny new MN account just to post on this thread, but have been around a long time.

I agree with much of what's been said already, including that this should never have got research ethics clearance (assuming of course that it did...), so I won't repeat that.

I just wanted to add some insider perspective, which I hope might be interesting/useful.

Apologies for the next paragraph sounding a bit like Aston PR. It's context. I will move on to something a bit more critical!

On the whole, Aston is generally very liberal. I'm GC (actively), & have never felt the need to hide my views at work. It's a very diverse community - lots of our students have difficult circumstances, & most academic staff work really hard to support students through issues like racism, financial difficulty & poor mental health. I've worked across HE, but I've now been at Aston a very long time, & nowhere else has been this apolitical. Everyone's just too busy dealing with shit, frankly, & there's a lot of it (some of which I'll come to)

Many courses have a compulsory placement year, and all have a technical/applied focus (even disciplines like History). This is because one of the things Aston likes to sell itself on is "usefulness" (in both teaching and research). I first came across the forensic linguistics work at Aston when I was at another university, & at that time, it was very much in this tradition - developing tools to keep children safe in online spaces, for eg. It strikes me that this particular PhD is an odd fit at Aston, for lots of reasons. However, i do work in a very different area, so maybe there's a whole ton of this type of thing going on & I'm just not aware of it.

Bits of the university are deeply, deeply sexist (HE is in general, IME, but Aston has a special brand of it). I can easily believe that it didn't occur to anyone involved (including female academics) that women posting here are also people. The misogyny at Aston is a whole other thread, but I absolutely think it's been a factor here, in the initial scrape and the uses to which the data has been put. We don't (generally) have issues with gender ideology harming women. We just have good old fashioned women-hating. It's like a little time machine (& has got worse since the VC came in a couple of years ago)

The VC himself is ruthlessly ambitious for himself and the institution. Having seen him in action, my guess would be that he's putting significant effort into protecting the university (I assume he's taken expensive legal advice). At the same time, I'm pretty confident those involved will be having a very hard time, even if that's being kept quiet. I doubt very much he's just waiting for it all to die down, but I also doubt he'll say much in public.

He wants people to talk about our graduate salaries, social mobility, contribution to the regional economy. He absolutely won't want people talking about an unethical study with significant methodological flaws!

I'm really proud of some aspects of what Aston does, & I work with some incredible people (genuinely the kind of people you would want your kids to be supported by if they were at university). I guess any big -ish institution will have its share of arseholes, & we definitely do. No one from Aston has covered themselves in glory here.