Discussion on R4 Woman's Hour on choking during sex

[MimiGC]

Has made me want to weep. What young women have to put up with now, under the guise of it being mainstream, cool and expected, really does make me want to cry. My daughter is 17, not yet sexually active, but I guess it won't be long before she is - what kind of a world are we sending our girls into, where being strangled, with all the risks that entails, is seen as normal?

Knowledge being main steeam is a good thing - it means people can discuss it, discuss safty concerns with certain things, and be well informed.

Keeping people in the dark, where they may be pressured into dangerous practices behind closed doors and not talk about it for shame and embaressment really doesn't seem the better option to me.

I would much rather be able to have open talks and discussions.

I have two daughters and I would much rather they can come and talk to me out in the open, then feel it's something you don't talk about and that it's shameful and secret like I had growing up.

This woman went oh yeah but if there’s a safe word... I said the safest safe word is No
How can you say a safe word if you are being strangled???
And yes non-fatal strangulation the correct term, not choking, not breath play!
Thank you for putting her straight!

Do you know what? I'm far more bothered about girls and young women believing that choking, anal and all sorts of other abusive behaviour is all they deserve in sexual relationships. It's been the silencing of criticism with "oh no, don't kink shame" that is enabling this to be uncritically pushed at young people.
If advocates for this porn addled approach to sex think this is "hugely unfair, judgemental and damaging" I don't care.

im 36 first time I got “choked” ( lets clear this up with what im referring to… there is hand on the neck a bit of pressure and then there’s proper breathe play, I’m referring to the first when I say choking) I don’t think it’s new at all though that was nearly 20 years ago by my then 17 yr old BF, I was naive at the time and I wouldn’t say enjoyed it but it’s so long ago I can’t be clear. Issue is it’s now on social media and so appears more common I guess. I get stuff on my feed and I don’t agree with it being promoted like that, like it’s a day to day activity in sex. Like I said I’m 36 now and can advocate for myself better and I will sometimes like being “choked” but only with my consent. Dare put a hand to my neck without asking and I’m done.

@MrsOvertonsWindow and what about the women, young women etc who enjoy those things? It's not just done for men ffs, nor does it always come from porn. I had no exposure to porn growing up, still knew what I liked and felt good with sex though.

This is just factually wrong. The clitteris does curve round but goes nowhere near the anus. That's just rubbish.
I get it if you are turned on by the submissive/humiliation inherent in the role but don't try to pretend there is any actual physical input.

Anal, spanking and bondage, within a consensual, mutually respectful relationship isn't what was being discussed, though, @Batgin. Strangulation is so dangerous - doing it wrongly, just once, can result in death, or can cause the person to have a stroke days or even weeks later, due to trauma to the carotid arteries. I cannot see any benefits that would outweigh those concerns - and I used to be active in the BDSM community, so I am no stranger to kinks, safe words etc.

Plus, if what I have heard is right, some young men are seeing choking as part of rough sex videos, and are going ahead and choking their sexual partners without any discussion or safe words, or are pressuring young women into choking as part of sex - in my experience of the BDSM community, communication and consent were absolutely key to any kinks, and pressuring people into going along with kinky sex, rough sex, violent sex, choking etc, was an absolute No No.

The problem is the proliferation of rough/violent porn, and the ease with which young men are finding it, and learning from it. You can't learn respectful, caring, mutually satisfying sex from a rough sex porn video - all you can learn is how to treat your sexual partners like shit - and no-one should be advocating that.

There's a difference between women who are older, already have "vanilla" sexual experience and who are likely more able to assert their boundaries, exploring non-mainstream sexual activities in a way that's genuinely free from coercion, than girls and boys who haven't even had sex yet growing up with a warped concept of sex from porn that misses out the foundational relational aspect of sex. Because a lot of young women have been coerced, groomed, forced or just tolerated sex that does not prioritise their pleasure or safety under the guise of "normality" or "sex-positivity" it is right to be critical about these practices, but if you are a woman that genuinely enjoys a certain activity then you will know that the criticism doesn't apply to your practice.

@MultiPolarista It does feel good for me. Why is that so hard to belive...because it goes againt the narritive that women get nothing out of it and it's all for men?

also from psychology today

"Below the vaginal opening is the perineum, the little bridge of skin that separates the vagina from the anus. The perineum and anus mark the lowest extent of the Clitoral System. Both can become very sensitive to erotic caresses, thanks to several muscles that surround the entire Clitoral System, the pelvic floor muscles.

The most widely known is the pubococcygeus, or PC, the one that contracts when women (or men) squeeze out the last few drops of urine. The PC also contracts during orgasm. It’s the muscle strengthened by Kegel exercises, which increase the pleasure of orgasm.

But in addition to the PC, there are also other pelvic muscles that form a figure-eight around the vaginal opening and anus. That’s why many women (and men) enjoy anal massage and tender fingering, and why a tiny proportion of women, 1 to 2 percent, enjoy gentle anal intercourse."

Oh and for what it's worth - I loath porn and don't agree with it. It's not got a place in my relationship or life.

I don’t think it’s to do with the cliterous as such but the amount of nerves in the area that gives a woman an orgasm. So there is some physical input as you put it. It’s not personally for me I don’t do it and most definitely one of my boundaries, the amount of guys that ask is crazy though

Young women are being "educated " to provide sexual gratification for their male partners, via social media imo. We had a brief window of women being allowed, by society, to enjoy sex, that window is closing again. Those women who do enjoy "kinks " are of course allowed them, but I do not think that they should be promoting them to others.
Pornography being so available is contributing to this view of women being there to be used and hurt, by any man who wants, while being dressed up as personal choice. It sits alongside the myth that sex work is empowering for women and is all driven by those who profit from it, either literal profit or more nebulous profit.

@SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius I understand that and agree. What I took issue with was the poster at the start saying that women can't enjoy things like spanking, anal, choking etc and are lying. I don't feel that this blanket statement is helpful when discussing how harmful stangulation is, and how common place it is becoming in porn. I think we need to accept some women do in fact like it to be able to discuss it.

I think we also need to disginguish between choking where someone is oxygen deprived and light pressure on the throat which some people would still class as choking.

My other posts have then been answering others questions to me.

@BrownSauceOnBeans don't kid yourself there are not predatory women who also invest too much time on porn. You don't need a penis to strangle, choke or fist. I know in the main it's males but the notion of normalising violent sex and entering into these horrible power games is universal.

Non fatal strangulation. Not choking or breath play.

There's a song that was on TikTok a while ago (god I'm so old) by Jack Harlow and the chorus has the line "I'm vanilla, baby, I'll choke you, but I ain't no killer, baby" - it's in the song 3 times. I think he says it like he's 'one of the good guys'. The rest of the lyrics are pretty average. What the fuck, Jack lad. For me to have seen/heard it means it broke through into my layer of internet so it'll have been all over.

Women should make their relationships conditional on no porn use. Boys and men need to be told in no uncertain terms that porn is misogyny and is unacceptable. Then we would create a generation of fathers of sons who model respectful behaviour and our daughters would not be subject to this treatment.

@Batgin
«But in addition to the PC, there are also other pelvic muscles that form a figure-eight around the vaginal opening and anus. That’s why many women (and men) enjoy anal massage and tender fingering, and why a tiny proportion of women, 1 to 2 percent, enjoy gentle anal intercourse."

I think the answer is in your quote here:
Tender, gentle anal intercourse.

That’s not what’s happening though, sadly.
I got raped both ways. It was excrutiatingly painful. And that is what too many girls are having done to them. Not gentle, not tender, but ripping and bruises (at best, I guess).
If they say it is painful they are told it’s their own fault for not relaxing enough, not being sex positive, not being wet enough, not using lube right. Except many boys don’t even know you need lube for anal - not that they care either way.

It is awful, and I really wish that strangulation and anal was not promoted as something everyone should enjoy on Fridays.

*I’m not saying Batgin is promoting this. But the national media in my country certainly does. All the web-news constantly have sex-toy ads and give «advice» on how to do kinky sex - no mention of the dangers or the pain many suffer.

@turbonerd I completly agree with you. And when not done in a consensual and caring way, it is oviously horrific - sadly I also have experience of this, as I think far to many people do.

What I'm arguing is that we need to talk about it, so that people can be informed, so that they can understand the harm it can cause, and how to practice things safely if that is what they want.

To ignore it completly, or to say that women never enjoy any of these things - including choking, as that was the initial topic, is disingenuous and damaging. It doesn't allow abuse to be pointed out or differentiated from consensual acts done with care and safety in mind.

Unfortunately, the "safe, sane" bit has disappeared. Now everyone is expected to consent to whatever's proposed or be "vanilla" (which is just another way of saying boring/frigid/crap in bed).

We are so far past what passed for sex positivity in the 90s it's laughable. Sex positive is looking pretty bloody negative, like the same old tropes have returned with a nice shiny "empowerment" package.

I have advised my daughter that if a boy/ man asks her to do something that she isn't comfortable with, then she's to ask him to do it first and see what his response is. This was initially in a discussion about shaving pubic hair and she had said that all boys expect that now, but she doesn't think she'd want to. I said she should ask any boy who asks her to shave, to first shave all his pubic hair off. If he wasn't willing to do that, then he shouldn't ask it of her.
I'd be inclined to say the same re. strangulation. If a boy ever tries to introduce that, she should say only if they can arrange for him to be strangled by a bigger, stronger male first and see how that goes. Only then would she even consider it. I am serious when I say this, but I also worry that such advice might put her in danger...

Conversely, and this was also on WH yesterday, this is a fascinating series about boys by boys.

Today's episode is talking about porn and has just mentioned asphyxiation. Boys are talking candidly about their experiences of porn and how it ruined relationships for them.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/live:bbcradioo_fourfm?partner=uk.co.bbc&origin=share-mobile

Yesterday's episode was much more heartwarming and explored ideas of masculinity

For me the problem is ...

When you are, say 18/20+ and you have experienced "vanilla", confident in your body, know what an orgasm and great, safe and respectful sex look and feels like then maybe you may experiment with other things. Personally, "breath play" or whatever nice name you want to give it, anal, fisting is absolutely not my scene.

The issue is young people/barely out of being kids are expecting (boys) this from day one as standard from our girls. They lack the experience and wisdom to ever do these things safely instead taking their lead from vile porn.

DD is 15, very shy and the thought of kissing a boy still makes her 🤮. I am grateful she will probably be late to the party sex and relationship wise. Because I'm scared for some of the horrific first times our girls are having, this shit influences heavily how you view sex and your expects for years to come and at this rate thrtr will be no boundaries for some of them

@MimiGC that wouldn't be my response to my children. If they don't want to do it, don't do it. Don't play around with 'ask your bf/gf' if they'll do it first... What would you expect them to do if their bf/gf did and then your child understandably still didn't want to.

I imagine most hetero 16 year old boys will categorically refuse receiving anal sex