The Grauniad on a damaging “reality” show

[RapidOnsetGenderCritic]

Another slanted take from The Guardian on a trans story. It seems to me that the main take from this sad tale should be that lying, or concealing the truth, has consequences. But the article doesn’t really mention that angle.

https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2024/apr/25/she-was-tough-but-it-broke-her-why-theres-something-about-miriam-was-reality-tvs-most-shameful-low

Wow.

Just fucking wow.

Unfuckingbelievable gaslighting.

Also.

Do you seriously think there's a clinic out there for gender critical family members to go pour their hearts out to thatd be trusted in the current climate as not being totally captured? It'd be little more than more of the same abuse to brainwash.

And if it's not captured, I know exactly what it'd tell people to do for their own well being. And Im not sure you'd like it.

Wrong target group. David Bell, Dr Cass & other professionals have highlighted the lack of qualified therapeutic input for young people who think they're the opposite sex. The overshadowing of trans over all their other co- morbidities is resulting in them reaching adulthood with their other mental health problems going untreated.
Very worrying.

My biggest issue above all else is the problem with respect.

The common theme is the demanding of respect by one party, without a single strand of compassion or thought for women or children.

Human rights are based on balancing harms and needs. Not demanding one party gets everything they desire and to hell with the safety and wellbeing of everyone else.

Compassion isn't a one way street.

My pissedoffness and anger comes from the sheer selfishness and deliberate erasure of anything that's an inconvenient truth.

Like oh The Entire Cass Report.

That wasn't butterflys point I don't think.
I thought their point was that someone close to you coming out as trans is almost like a bereavement or a trauma, it shakes the foundations of you and your relationship. And therapy helps to manage that.

I saw butterfly as being empathetic tbh. Would be nice if we could just take posts with noble intent, rather than implying a malevolent agenda.

Whatever the intent was, that was a tone deaf post given that women (sex based meaning) have been literally institutionalised for defying men's expectations.

Society found it easier to believe the narrative of the irrational and hysterical female mind than face up to what it was doing en masse to half of humanity.

https://time.com/6074783/psychiatry-history-women-mental-health/

Anyone who might wonder why the idea of manly and womanly minds being so offsensive, if not downright dangerous, to female people would do well to think on this.

Hyperbole.

Women want to keep their our words and spaces, and we oppose transitioning children. Otherwise life your life! We'll support you. Nothing anti trans about it.

It would be great if the trans activists accepted that 99% of our aims are in alignment.

Would be nice if we could just take posts with noble intent, rather than implying a malevolent agenda.

Not possible when someone can't see women and children and their right to safeguarding.

Sorry. You don't get to try and pull that trick of gaslighting women into 'being kind' when there's been THAT script and conversation on another thread over the course of the last few days.

Women deserve to be seen and their rights recognised. Children deserve to be seen and their rights recognised.

When you have a male insisting that their singular experience must be the basis of everything and being taken as proof of how transition is harmless for all, and can't acknowledge the point that Cass makes that this isn't a homogeneous group and is instead a heterogenous group with complex multiple unmet needs, the answer is NO WE WILL NOT TOLERATE THIS.

Because 'tolerance' is the very thing that has caused harm to countless kids and countless women.

No more.

OK
Imo implying people might need support to deal with the trauma of someone coming out isn't #bekind to anyone other than the affected person. But I can't assume that's what butterfly meant.

Ethical psychiatric care aims to rid patients of delusions, not to install them.

The Soviets were great fans of abusing psychiatric medicine, to try to force people to believe in things they knew to be untrue. Is that what you had in mind?

Good practice would be to tell people what reality is and that they should have confidence and faith in that. And they shouldn't allow themselves to be gaslight into thinking differently.

Funny isn't it.

I can definitely say that when I accepted that I was being gaslight and it was abusive to force me to tell untruths and try and rewrite my life, I was free of the fear, obligation and guilt.

Fairly sure they'll be a few transwidows on FWR who will totally get where I'm coming from on that.

I suspect that many from the The Children of Transitioners group would also get where you're coming from

https://outofthefog.website/toolbox-1/2015/11/17/fog-fear-obligation-guilt#:~:text=Work%20on%20setting%20Boundaries%20that,when%20you%20are%20making%20decisions.

FOG - Fear, Obligation & Guilt - The acronym FOG, for Fear, Obligation and Guilt, was first coined by Susan Forward & Donna Frazier in Emotional Blackmail and describes feelings that a person often has when in a relationship with someone who suffers from a personality disorder. Our website, Out of the FOG, is named after this acronym.

it continues:

Fear is a mental process that that triggers a physical response in humans when confronted by a threat. Fear produces adrenaline that prepares us for the classic "fight or flight" response to threatening situations. When we fear, we anticipate the possibility that something bad might happen soon. Our bodies shut down all long or non-critical functions as we prepare for immediate physical action. Our digestive systems shut down and expel unnecessary waste. Our immune systems and growth systems are put on a lower priority as we prepare to deal with sudden, immediate threats. Our heart beat and breathing quickens to provide increased oxygen to our muscles. Our senses heighten and our peripheral long range thoughts are relegated. Fear is a survival instinct that preserved some of our ancestors in moments of extreme danger. So fear can be a good thing. However, prolonged fear - also known as stress or anxiety, is not so good for us and can lead to increased risk of long term health problems.
^^
Obligation comes from an innate sense of community responsibility. We are born with an instinctive sense of obligation to those around us. Historically, humans who isolated themselves from a community were in much greater danger of perishing. Only those who contributed to the community were accepted by the community. As a result, our communities have evolved in such a way that those who have a strong sense of community responsibility are more likely to be accepted by others and ultimately to produce children. Obligation has served our ancestors well in forming communities. However, when a ruthless person takes advantage of our instinctive sense of obligation, they can manipulate our gut reactions to do things which do not always help us thrive and prosper.
^^
Guilt comes from the same root as obligation. Most of us feel guilt when we do something that we think hurts others or disappoints of others. Our societies have evolved in such a way that it is not socially acceptable to deliberately hurt another person and those who do are often incarcerated, ostracized and condemned by others. However, our instinctive gut reactions of guilt can also be activated when we refuse to help another person. This is where most Non-PD's experience guilt because often in the process of setting boundaries, Non-PD's will have to make a choice of whether or not to give another person, who suffers from a personality disorder, something which they want, which comes at a great personal cost to the Non-PD if they say "no".

Shall we carry on? Yes.

Examples of FOG - Fear, Obligation & Guilt

A man tells his wife - "I will kill myself if you ever leave me"
A mother tells her adult children "You can't possibly care about me if you won't come to Christmas Dinner"
A teenager tells his parents "I hate you - you've ruined my life!" when they refuse to grant a request.
A young girl overdoses on pain killers after her boyfriend ends the relationship
An office employee falsely states "everyone in the office agrees with me" after a disagreement with a co-worker.

Any of this sounds familiar to anyone yet?

What it Feels Like
FOG can produce a sense of dread and hopelessness and make you do and say things that you are uncomfortable with. People have stayed in abusive homes and marriages, lived in squalid conditions, suffered physical pain without medical care, sacrificed their entire wealth and some have sacrificed their lives because of FOG.

If you have been living for a long time with a person who suffers from a personality disorder, chances are you have been living with FOG and her 3 dreadful companions - hopelessness, helplessness and powerlessness. Like a defeated animal backed into a corner it is quite common to have the instinct to just lie down and take it. This can lead to a form of Learned Helplessness.

What NOT to do

If you are living in FOG - Fear, Obligation & Guilt:
Don't forget that it's harder to see everything clearly in fog - so everything you see isn't everything that is there.
Don't rely purely on your gut instincts or your feelings to guide you, because your feelings are mostly negative.
Don't allow yourself to be isolated and for the person with the personality disorder to be the only person you talk to on a regular basis on the subject.
Don't stop doing things that are good for you, healthy behaviors, friends, work, recreation etc.
Don't sustain any situation or relationship where you do not have the option to say "no" where it is reasonable to do so. Nobody who is a true friend will demand "yes" 100% of the time. Healthy relationships are two-way streets - not one-way streets and anyone who is a true friend or who truly loves you will give as much as they receive.
Don't sacrifice taking care of yourself in order to help another person. That just makes both people poor.

What TO do
Learn all you can about personality disorders.
Get yourself a support network where you can discuss things that concern you without feeling judged.
Work on setting Boundaries that will help you escape the feelings of helplessness, hopelessness and powerlessness.
Try to add logical rational thought to every emotional thought of Fear, Obligation & Guilt.
Try to substitute "what really works" for "what feels right" when you are making decisions.
Promptly remove yourself and any innocent children from any emotionally abusive situations.

Really? So me and anyone else with a close family member who says we MUST use gendered pronouns and not correctly sex and have suffered psychological harm from this, should be the ones getting therapy?

To do what exactly? Therapy which allows us to name the thing that's harming us and to correctly identify it?

Houston we have a problem here.

I'm really not going to pander to this shite and 'ne kind' not give 'the benefit of the doubt' cos really I got past that point some years previously and I'm not a dupe.

I'm not going to be gaslight on this shit and told that pronouns are respectful, cos respectfully that's a pile of utter rotting nonsense.

I'm just someone who was lucky enough to discover that a particular treatment pathway was available at a young age and found the courage and tenacity to reach for it, and is now trying to address the information gap about people who historically benefited from it like I did. I suppose that makes me an activist of sorts.

When I first visited this forum I had hoped that the majority of posters were interested in historical and long-term retrospective insights into the treatment that is the source of such confusion and controversy, and there was an initial wave of interest and even compassion - but when it became clear that I was actually here to speak the truth about my experiences rather than as a 'pick-me' and that I couldn't be lovebombed into supporting false narratives, I started receiving near-constant hostility every time I commented on a thread.

A core group of posters has spent a frankly intimidating amount of time interrogating me on every detail of my life that I have revealed over the last few years whenever I have presented a much-needed dissenting voice based upon my own experiences of transitioning young.

I agree that 99% of our aims are in alignment. I'm afraid that I intend to continue to address the highly contested 1% we disagree on - especially the ideological opposition to young transitioners that has now led us to the complete cessation of endocrine support for those who desperately need it across the UK.

"The ends justify the means" is not an ethical argument.

It is almost unrelentingly grim and miserable, in fact, and a source of not insignificant psychological strain.

Again, if you work on that body acceptance, and acknowledge to yourself that you are male and always will be, you wouldn’t have to live under such not insignificant psychological strain from making sure everyone affirms your false belief.

The Soviets were great fans of abusing psychiatric medicine, to try to force people to believe in things they knew to be untrue. Is that what you had in mind?

The Soviet Union was also the first country to ban lobotomies though, so they weren’t completely barbaric.

Absolutely this. It can be a big shock to come to terms with someone you are close to having a significant change in their life circumstances and there are support services available to help.

Only you would think that good advice.

Perhaps the ‘good advice’ below is useful.

Support services to come to terms with their sex. Not the advice for others to learn how to lie.

That's male privilege and male socialisation for you!

stop the slander. As you well know we are pro-women's rights. If you see them as in conflict with what TRA wants that tells me (and should tell you) all you need to know about what TRA want.

Women on this forum want a way forward that doesn't take away women's rights to dignity and privicy and the word women. TRAs want to trample all over that. As you well know.

So stop with the pathetic slander/libel and invest your energy in finding a 3rd way.

yes but when we say they might need to see a (non-captured) therepist? shrieks of "it's not a mental disorder"

As Red says: respect goes 2 ways. I will not "respect" anyone shrieking at me that misgendering is akin to genocide. When they calm down, i may listen. But until then? i will do what i think is right, which is being polite to everyone, but ignoring people shouting and demanding things of me that they are not prepared to give me themselves (ie respect)

Misgendering is a mystery to me. When it happens, all the misgendered-one has to say is "She" or whatever. The "pronouns in signatures" convo amuses me because i won't do it and the answer is often "but but but what if you're misgendered?" as though it's the worst thing in the world. It isn't.

I find it incredibly disengenous to play the innocent routine on this particular issue after the last few days in particular.

I know why it's happened. It's about that point that several have made about there being no where left to go but discrediting highly respected individuals and medical practices and advice hominem attacks. There hasn't been any interrogation in the last few days. There has been a confrontation about what evidence based medicine is, contradictory posting and cognitive dissonance.

Butters seems to think that posting their life story and experiences is evidence of a high quality and Dr Cass should have taken it into consideration.

Butters has not liked it when it's been pointed that there is clearly a lacking in understanding of what constitutes evidence based medicine and what constitutes ancedote. Nor when actually examining the life story which Butters WANTED to hold up as evidence, total inconsistent and contradictory points were present which brings the credibility of 'the evidence' into question. No one asked Butters to do this. It was presented to us to accept as read as an attempt to undermine Cass.

Nor when it's been pointed out that Cass has identified that there's multiple groups within the young group who are presenting themselves as trans and this isn't as simple as been considered in the past, has Butters engaged. This is a group with significant and complex multiple needs who are extremely vulnerable and have a variety of issues which are being unmet because the focus has been placed on trans.

Butters also seems to think that as a young male they are representative of female health care for under 18s. And does things like deliberately muddy the waters by using terms like trans guys in this context. The whole issue of sex absolutely matters. Theres pages and pages of the ignoring and erasure of the point that women's bodies respond differently to medicine and present differently for the same condition which Butters has gone to great linguistic lengths to avoid engaging with. And seems to think we don't notice when it's done.

There's whole bucket loads of evidence which says that females are getting second class healthcare because of the attitude that male and female bodies are the same. Default human is considered male in healthcare and this is why gender neutral terms in healthcare really harm women and girls.

The form for manipulation of language to suit an agenda isn't lost on those of us who have been involved in or have been following the conversation over the course of the last week. It's just the naive and the usual propaganda fog horn that haven't seemed cotton on. (Funny that).

Then we got 'gender euphoria' which raises so many red flags I don't know where to start.

By now we have reached a point, established by Butters alone, that they often don't post with good faith. So it should come as no surprise when treated as such.

This isn't anti-trans. Nor is it victimisation. It's about a specific posting history and how this clashes with, checks notes, actual female interests. Or as some like to call it - feminism. Which is kinda ok to have round these parts. What with it being the feminist section of MN.

The deliberate attempts to smear women here for doing that as some kind of anti-trans monsters is off the scale in its narcissism.

I'm sure it taken out of context it probably makes for nice screen shots for other places. But again we long stopped giving a shit about that. Context and timing is everything to actual meaning. Linguistic patterns and use are fascinating to study as I'm sure Aston University will agree with.

We see you.