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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The Grauniad on a damaging “reality” show

287 replies

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 25/04/2024 20:34

Another slanted take from The Guardian on a trans story. It seems to me that the main take from this sad tale should be that lying, or concealing the truth, has consequences. But the article doesn’t really mention that angle.

https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2024/apr/25/she-was-tough-but-it-broke-her-why-theres-something-about-miriam-was-reality-tvs-most-shameful-low

‘She was tough, but it broke her’: why There’s Something About Miriam was reality TV’s most shameful low

From Miriam being ‘revealed’ as a transgender woman to the contestants trashing the set, it was the cruellest reality show ever. Ahead of a new series about its tragic fallout, Miriam’s brother and friend open up for the first time about her death

https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2024/apr/25/she-was-tough-but-it-broke-her-why-theres-something-about-miriam-was-reality-tvs-most-shameful-low

OP posts:
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AdamRyan · 27/04/2024 18:05

Otterly2 · 27/04/2024 17:58

You think the actor on Baby Reindeer looked like they were female? Bizarre. They are obviously male.

I think if I met that person in the ladies I wouldn't even register they might be a TW. Or if I walked past them in the street.

Otterly2 · 27/04/2024 18:07

That's really strange as I know that I would notice straight away that they were male. And I would be worried if I met them in the ladies and would probably leave.

Brefugee · 27/04/2024 18:24

AdamRyan · 27/04/2024 15:19

It's a very clear difference of opinion depending on what position one takes.

If one takes the GC position of "there is no such thing as gender" then you are correct that it's correctly sexing.

If one takes the position there is such a thing as gender, and its an important facet of someone's identity, then Butterfly is correct it is misgendering.

And in fact these aren't statements that are exclusive of each other - one can recognise it is correctly sexing and also misgendering.

your sex is not a matter of opinion. If you are of the opinion (!) that your gender doesn't match your sex, you acknowledge that your sex exists.

And no amount of legal threats, laws or otherwise (luckily you don't have self ID in UK) will persuade me EVER to call a man a woman or vice versa. Trans women (and i think I'm going to go back to transwoman) are men. Otherwise they wouldn't be trans. One thing i definitely can't be is a trans woman (or transwoman) becuase i am a woman. That isn't opinion it is fact.

And the sooner people who are trying to police factual speech stop trying to force it, the happier we'll all be.

ButterflyHatched · 27/04/2024 19:19

@FlirtsWithRhinos We are chatting happily. The topic of Nadia comes up. Which language do you choose, knowing that either way one of us will be hurt?

You are invoking a false equivalence here and you are clearly canny enough to know precisely what you are doing, which places you firmly into 'bad faith argument' territory.

The magnitude of harms and the power balance of the social dynamics involved in this situation are asymmetrical. You are claiming that your membership of a large demographic consisting of half the population who are subject to one axis of oppression gives you carte blanche to abuse a member of a minority group by both dismissing their lived reality and knowingly weaponising language that they find harmful.

We do not legally or (generally) socially enshrine the right of one group to oppress minorities just because they themselves are oppressed. I'm sorry that the idea of not acting in a harmful way toward this minority group upsets you, but oppression isn't a currency you pay to exempt your own harmful actions and there is no mutually exclusive tension between 'not abusing trans people' and 'being a woman' despite your choice of framing.

EasternStandard · 27/04/2024 19:33

FlirtsWithRhinos · 27/04/2024 16:25

My point is one doesn't have to negate trans people's view of themselves to recognise sex and gender are different things. Indeed, one has to recognise that sex and gender are different things to accept trans people's view of themselves.

So, being different things, it's entirely reasonable and ok to treat them as different things. The only thing that is obscuring this, the only thing that makes it hard for you and other well-meaning people to navigate, is the deliberate decision by trans activists to appropriate the language we use for sex as the language we must use for gender.

You say you don't want to impose on others, but by accepting the definition of sex terminology for gender you are doing exactly that. You are falling into the trap of only thinking about one group and imposing their "solution" onto people who do not want it and find it demeaning and marginalising.

Thought experiment for you.

You are chatting to two people.

One is a TW who believes deeply and genuinely "she" and "woman" are the appropriate terminology for TW because something in their minds makes them women regardless of their bodies.

The other is me, who believes that women through history have been treated shittily because men took power and othered the female body, and that over time this has cumulatively built a society that, while it may pay lip service to female equality, through structural and social norms continues in practice to undervalue and disempower women, and that the idea that women's minds are "just different" is one of the core foundations of this.

This is not just intellectual disagreement - I find the idea that a man can decide for himself he is actually a "woman" because his mind is somehow "womanly" deeply, deeply offensive. It distresses emotionally because facing the degree to which society historically and still is stacked against women triggers feelings of helplessness and disempowerment.

To refer to a TW with female language and thereby put both me and the TW in a group of "the womanly minded" denies my beliefs includng my beliefs about my own self just as much as using male language does for the TW.

We are chatting happily. The topic of Nadia comes up. Which language do you choose, knowing that either way one of us will be hurt?

Regardless of the reaction from gender ideology believers you are right to ask this question

I recall an excellent quote by Sheila Jeffreys

‘As a feminist, I consider the female pronoun to be an honorific, a term that conveys respect. Respect is due to women as members of a sex caste that have survived subordination and deserve to be addressed with honour. Men who transgender cannot occupy such a position.’

MissLucyEyelesbarrow · 27/04/2024 19:42

ButterflyHatched · 27/04/2024 19:19

@FlirtsWithRhinos We are chatting happily. The topic of Nadia comes up. Which language do you choose, knowing that either way one of us will be hurt?

You are invoking a false equivalence here and you are clearly canny enough to know precisely what you are doing, which places you firmly into 'bad faith argument' territory.

The magnitude of harms and the power balance of the social dynamics involved in this situation are asymmetrical. You are claiming that your membership of a large demographic consisting of half the population who are subject to one axis of oppression gives you carte blanche to abuse a member of a minority group by both dismissing their lived reality and knowingly weaponising language that they find harmful.

We do not legally or (generally) socially enshrine the right of one group to oppress minorities just because they themselves are oppressed. I'm sorry that the idea of not acting in a harmful way toward this minority group upsets you, but oppression isn't a currency you pay to exempt your own harmful actions and there is no mutually exclusive tension between 'not abusing trans people' and 'being a woman' despite your choice of framing.

Men oppress women (as a class), not the other way round. That doesn't change because a man claims to be female. Quite the opposite, in fact: men who demand that women treat them as women are adding a whole extra level of oppression.

EasternStandard · 27/04/2024 19:51

The idea that this was more about daily affirmation and ‘euphoria’ was raised elsewhere

No one has to enable it. Women do not, children most certainly do not.

GailBlancheViola · 27/04/2024 19:56

by both dismissing their lived reality and knowingly weaponising language that they find harmful.

The sheer brass neck required to post this is quite something to behold.

FlirtsWithRhinos · 27/04/2024 20:01

ButterflyHatched · 27/04/2024 19:19

@FlirtsWithRhinos We are chatting happily. The topic of Nadia comes up. Which language do you choose, knowing that either way one of us will be hurt?

You are invoking a false equivalence here and you are clearly canny enough to know precisely what you are doing, which places you firmly into 'bad faith argument' territory.

The magnitude of harms and the power balance of the social dynamics involved in this situation are asymmetrical. You are claiming that your membership of a large demographic consisting of half the population who are subject to one axis of oppression gives you carte blanche to abuse a member of a minority group by both dismissing their lived reality and knowingly weaponising language that they find harmful.

We do not legally or (generally) socially enshrine the right of one group to oppress minorities just because they themselves are oppressed. I'm sorry that the idea of not acting in a harmful way toward this minority group upsets you, but oppression isn't a currency you pay to exempt your own harmful actions and there is no mutually exclusive tension between 'not abusing trans people' and 'being a woman' despite your choice of framing.

You are invoking a false equivalence here and you are clearly canny enough to know precisely what you are doing, which places you firmly into 'bad faith argument' territory.

I utterly reject that assertion, and I find it offensive and in bad faith from you yourself.

abuse a member of a minority group by both dismissing their lived reality and knowingly weaponising language that they find harmful.

You are, either intentionally or because of your own bias, missing my point. I'm not placing one over the other. The answer I wanted was not "oh I guess we have to pick the female person then", it was the realisation that as long as we have the same word meaning two things this issue cannot be resolved. It is that, the claim on language itself, that need to be solved.

What you define it as "abuse" is in fact that a marginilised group, in this case women, does not agree to give up its own name, rights, language and autonomy, to accomdate another marginlised group.

When you define this as abuse you are creating a situation where the first group can never have a moral right to assert its own identity and needs as different, its own literal definition, self understanding and experiences as something that does not include the second.

How can this ever be considered reasonable, to literally overwrite people's own understanding of themselves and their own lives becausae you want their language for yourself?

It can't.

You cannot assert a group of people acknowledging real, meaningfully diference to you - not placing any value on that difference but simply acknowledging it exists - is "abuse".

oppression isn't a currency you pay to exempt your own harmful actions

And yet, in your reply, you are doing exactly this by prioritsing your need as a trans woman to be accepted a woman over female people's need to maintain their social, legal and political legitmacy as a single sex class.

The fact you assume your experience as a trans woman is "worse" than the lived reality of women in a sexist society speaks volumes.

If you honestly believe oppression isn't a currency you pay to exempt your own harmful actions, and I hope that you do, then please stop using your experience as a trans woman to justify the harm you do to female people when you redefine our womanhood and reframe lived experiences you have never had in support of your own projections on to us.

Women are not a metaphor for trans women's feelings of alienation from male society and their own male bodies.

My solution, different language for sex and gender, would allow both of us our existence, the truth of our lives and the language to speak of it, and our dignity. Yours does not. Please think about that.

WoshPank · 27/04/2024 20:09

MissLucyEyelesbarrow · 27/04/2024 19:42

Men oppress women (as a class), not the other way round. That doesn't change because a man claims to be female. Quite the opposite, in fact: men who demand that women treat them as women are adding a whole extra level of oppression.

Yep. Males are the oppressor class here, regardless of whether the male concerned happens to identify as a woman. The rest is noise.

illinivich · 27/04/2024 21:12

ButterflyHatched · 27/04/2024 19:19

@FlirtsWithRhinos We are chatting happily. The topic of Nadia comes up. Which language do you choose, knowing that either way one of us will be hurt?

You are invoking a false equivalence here and you are clearly canny enough to know precisely what you are doing, which places you firmly into 'bad faith argument' territory.

The magnitude of harms and the power balance of the social dynamics involved in this situation are asymmetrical. You are claiming that your membership of a large demographic consisting of half the population who are subject to one axis of oppression gives you carte blanche to abuse a member of a minority group by both dismissing their lived reality and knowingly weaponising language that they find harmful.

We do not legally or (generally) socially enshrine the right of one group to oppress minorities just because they themselves are oppressed. I'm sorry that the idea of not acting in a harmful way toward this minority group upsets you, but oppression isn't a currency you pay to exempt your own harmful actions and there is no mutually exclusive tension between 'not abusing trans people' and 'being a woman' despite your choice of framing.

The magnitude of harms and the power balance of the social dynamics involved in this situation are asymmetrical.

When women correctly identify the sex of someone?

The dangers of creating a society where children are confused about sex pales into insignificance when considering the hurt a man feels when we see his sex? Really?

Come on, remember you are posting on a parenting site, and think about what you are saying.

RedToothBrush · 27/04/2024 21:54

AdamRyan · 27/04/2024 15:19

It's a very clear difference of opinion depending on what position one takes.

If one takes the GC position of "there is no such thing as gender" then you are correct that it's correctly sexing.

If one takes the position there is such a thing as gender, and its an important facet of someone's identity, then Butterfly is correct it is misgendering.

And in fact these aren't statements that are exclusive of each other - one can recognise it is correctly sexing and also misgendering.

FFS.

Right. As I've said before. Who gets to take away my reality?

No one. And that's what it's about.

Wrong sex pronouns are all about power and control. They aren't about gender or sex. They are about trying to assert authority over someone else.

Reality doesn't cease to fucking exist. Men and women don't change gender as and when they stick on a bloody dress or trousers. We have individuals who in all seriousness think they should be addressed as she half the week and he the rest of the week. That's NOT about gender.

And someone who goes on about gender euphoria sure as hell isn't demanding pronouns because of anything innocent. Indeed attempts to 'correct' me over my brother are a clear power play.

It's being done here for the exact same reason. To try and belittle and control women.

To get off on it.

GailBlancheViola · 27/04/2024 22:06

Indeed attempts to 'correct' me over my brother are a clear power play.

Yep, power and control. Force speech, thought and compliance - you will obey, how very totalitarian.

RedToothBrush · 27/04/2024 22:08

'Gender Euphoria'

No woman gets off on correctly sexing anyone.

Males get off on being gendered according to their desires.

Make of that, what you will.

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 27/04/2024 22:24

ButterflyHatched · 27/04/2024 19:19

@FlirtsWithRhinos We are chatting happily. The topic of Nadia comes up. Which language do you choose, knowing that either way one of us will be hurt?

You are invoking a false equivalence here and you are clearly canny enough to know precisely what you are doing, which places you firmly into 'bad faith argument' territory.

The magnitude of harms and the power balance of the social dynamics involved in this situation are asymmetrical. You are claiming that your membership of a large demographic consisting of half the population who are subject to one axis of oppression gives you carte blanche to abuse a member of a minority group by both dismissing their lived reality and knowingly weaponising language that they find harmful.

We do not legally or (generally) socially enshrine the right of one group to oppress minorities just because they themselves are oppressed. I'm sorry that the idea of not acting in a harmful way toward this minority group upsets you, but oppression isn't a currency you pay to exempt your own harmful actions and there is no mutually exclusive tension between 'not abusing trans people' and 'being a woman' despite your choice of framing.

So what would you say to another minority group, old parents of trans adults? Does your hierarchy of oppression even recognise us? We’re in a minority, we experience ageism daily, and we so marginalised that I haven’t yet come across a media article about us.

OP posts:
ButterflyHatched · 27/04/2024 22:37

RedToothBrush · 27/04/2024 21:54

FFS.

Right. As I've said before. Who gets to take away my reality?

No one. And that's what it's about.

Wrong sex pronouns are all about power and control. They aren't about gender or sex. They are about trying to assert authority over someone else.

Reality doesn't cease to fucking exist. Men and women don't change gender as and when they stick on a bloody dress or trousers. We have individuals who in all seriousness think they should be addressed as she half the week and he the rest of the week. That's NOT about gender.

And someone who goes on about gender euphoria sure as hell isn't demanding pronouns because of anything innocent. Indeed attempts to 'correct' me over my brother are a clear power play.

It's being done here for the exact same reason. To try and belittle and control women.

To get off on it.

While I am mildly amused by the notion that someone would advocate for the compassionate and respectful treatment of trans people on a forum infamous for its role as a recruiting ground for the anti-trans movement as a way of 'getting off', I can assure you that the experience of regularly subjecting myself to intense hostility from yourself and other posters is not, in fact, something I would classify as in any way enjoyable.

It is almost unrelentingly grim and miserable, in fact, and a source of not insignificant psychological strain.

ApocalipstickNow · 27/04/2024 22:38

This bit from flirtswithrhinos

Women are not a metaphor for trans women's feelings of alienation from male society and their own male bodies.

should be a banner heading on this forum.

RedToothBrush · 27/04/2024 22:40

ButterflyHatched · 27/04/2024 22:37

While I am mildly amused by the notion that someone would advocate for the compassionate and respectful treatment of trans people on a forum infamous for its role as a recruiting ground for the anti-trans movement as a way of 'getting off', I can assure you that the experience of regularly subjecting myself to intense hostility from yourself and other posters is not, in fact, something I would classify as in any way enjoyable.

It is almost unrelentingly grim and miserable, in fact, and a source of not insignificant psychological strain.

Because being told repeatedly that your brother, your son, your father is now no longer that but is in fact your sister, your daughter or your mother has absolutely no psychological effect or distress?

Yes yes we get it just fine.

The fantasy must be upheld and reality must be suppressed.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 27/04/2024 22:42

ButterflyHatched · 27/04/2024 22:37

While I am mildly amused by the notion that someone would advocate for the compassionate and respectful treatment of trans people on a forum infamous for its role as a recruiting ground for the anti-trans movement as a way of 'getting off', I can assure you that the experience of regularly subjecting myself to intense hostility from yourself and other posters is not, in fact, something I would classify as in any way enjoyable.

It is almost unrelentingly grim and miserable, in fact, and a source of not insignificant psychological strain.

You might want to do a bit of self reflection about why you spend so much time attempting to control women on here? Smearing women and mothers as "anti trans" and displaying a lack of insight and empathy into women's sex based oppression. Not to mention a shocking lack of insight in to safeguarding children?

It is of course up to you where you post but if it's as awful an experience as you claim.......🙄

RedToothBrush · 27/04/2024 22:43

The only person that matters is the 'vulnerable one' who has 'no power'.

Except the power to make everyone around them pretend that material reality ceases to exist.

Magic. It's incredible how that happens isn't it?

AdamRyan · 27/04/2024 22:44

illinivich · 27/04/2024 21:12

The magnitude of harms and the power balance of the social dynamics involved in this situation are asymmetrical.

When women correctly identify the sex of someone?

The dangers of creating a society where children are confused about sex pales into insignificance when considering the hurt a man feels when we see his sex? Really?

Come on, remember you are posting on a parenting site, and think about what you are saying.

There is no way you can train children to be confused about sex. We are animals. Our reproductive instincts will always override our "socialisation".
This is basically the same regressive argument that children will be "turned gay" by education about homosexuality.

RedToothBrush · 27/04/2024 22:46

The same one that throws a tantrum and says its no fair when they don't get what they want and they don't get to dismiss world class paediatric doctors because to they don't say validating things to support their own transition because oh shit children have multiple complex needs and should be safeguarded. How very dare they be so inconvenient as to not being strange forward little clones.

AdamRyan · 27/04/2024 22:47

RedToothBrush · 27/04/2024 21:54

FFS.

Right. As I've said before. Who gets to take away my reality?

No one. And that's what it's about.

Wrong sex pronouns are all about power and control. They aren't about gender or sex. They are about trying to assert authority over someone else.

Reality doesn't cease to fucking exist. Men and women don't change gender as and when they stick on a bloody dress or trousers. We have individuals who in all seriousness think they should be addressed as she half the week and he the rest of the week. That's NOT about gender.

And someone who goes on about gender euphoria sure as hell isn't demanding pronouns because of anything innocent. Indeed attempts to 'correct' me over my brother are a clear power play.

It's being done here for the exact same reason. To try and belittle and control women.

To get off on it.

You do you and let me do me Red. It means nothing to you if I decide to use pronouns. And actually flirts post was useful earlier. Because actually I usually don't use pronouns, I just don't refuse to use pronouns and refer to TW as men.

ButterflyHatched · 27/04/2024 22:47

RedToothBrush · 27/04/2024 22:40

Because being told repeatedly that your brother, your son, your father is now no longer that but is in fact your sister, your daughter or your mother has absolutely no psychological effect or distress?

Yes yes we get it just fine.

The fantasy must be upheld and reality must be suppressed.

I would desperately urge anyone to engage with appropriately qualified professional health services if they are having difficulty with a family member's transition and haven't sought them out already.

AdamRyan · 27/04/2024 22:49

ButterflyHatched · 27/04/2024 22:47

I would desperately urge anyone to engage with appropriately qualified professional health services if they are having difficulty with a family member's transition and haven't sought them out already.

Good advice butterfly