Oh dear

[GnomeDePlume]

I finally 'came out' to my DS(25) & DH that I believe TW are men.

Got a strong lecture from DS about how that means I am Transphobic. He has now gone off in a huff.

DH has gone silent.

Up until now we have kind of skirted the issue. From time to time I have been lectured on the apparent evil of JKR.

But the bravery of MNers in standing up to this IRL meant that I felt I could no longer continue saying nothing in my own home.

👏👏👏

This discussion about what the male "allies" get out of it is very interesting!

It seems one turning point is that we have to make it uncomfortable for the #bekind-men.

Why do they not want feminine men or men with traditionally seen as feminine interests and hobbies around them?

Is it internalized homophobia, though it’s a strange assumption that feminine men equal gay men, or, I agree with you, it seems more likely they see feminine traits as lesser and thus want to distance themselves as much as possible from them, hence shoving TW out of the male class and into the female class?

And as was discussed elsewhere many times, TM are not the same, not always physically equally strong, often not as brash as not having grown up with typical male confidence and more likely to accept a “third space”, and finally, not as numerous.

So vice versa the argument would not work. It’s a men’s problem, because they don’t want to start questioning the social role of men and their own assumptions.

We could bat it back to them and question their kindness and open-mindedness. It's almost a NIMBY situation.

I think I recently figured out where this thinking comes from, because it used to flummox me too.

The missing link is that in modern social justice theory, it is acceptable to discriminate, even quite directly, against people who are seen as oppressors or having privilege.

For example this way of thinking says that if you are black, you cannot be a racist, no matter what your behaviour towards white people is, and it is even ok to discriminate against them institutionally.

In this instance, women are justified in discriminating against men by having separate facilities because they are oppressors, but because they are in this thinking at the same level, or even higher, than transwomen, they aren't. People lower in the hierarchy always need to be treated as individuals.

It's so ingrained in many people, especially the more recently in education, that they don't even realize they are making the distinction in that way.

It certainly used to be that many men, and to an extent wider society, were contemptuous of effeminate boys and men - nancy boys, namby pambies and so on. I don’t hear that sort of language any more, though I suppose some of the nastier comments about transwomen come from much the same place.

It’s interesting to examine my own prejudices. I’m not at all keen on camp, but the transwomen I know are not camp, though quite gentle (possibly unhealthily so). And the transman I know doesn’t come across as particularly masculine. In fact the only trans people I dislike are ones I don’t know personally, where I’m reacting to their online persona or what the media show of them. On the whole, I prefer both men and women to be rather stronger personalities, as opposed to wet or fragile. My extended family contains several strong women.

In fact the only trans people I dislike are ones I don’t know personally

One thing I've noticed from my own experiences is that many of the nastiest, rudest people on the Internet come across as sweet and friendly in real life.

In fact most of my offline friendships with trans, TRA and other very progressive people only broke because I saw their online behaviour, or was directly subjected to it on Facebook.

Is it internalized homophobia, though it’s a strange assumption that feminine men equal gay men, or, I agree with you, it seems more likely they see feminine traits as lesser and thus want to distance themselves as much as possible from them, hence shoving TW out of the male class and into the female class?

I'm reminded of the observation that one reason heterosexual men dislike and even fear homosexual men is that they don't want other men treating them the way they treat women.

I said something not dissimilar when DS1 aggressively called me a terf years ago. I also told him that when #MeToo happened I made a list of all the times I'd been sexually assaulted or flashed at but gave up at around 75 partly because it was too depressing but mainly because I couldn't decide whether to include the neighbour who flashed at me and my friends every single morning on the way to school just once or every time he did it and I couldn't be bothered to do the maths of every school day for four years.

And told him that when I first voted, women had only had the vote for 54 years, that it was within my life time that women were allowed to apply for our own credit cards without their husband's approval, that it was also within my own lifetime that rape within marriage was recognised and domestic violence treated as an actual crime, so I was well aware how very fragile women's rights are and I was happy to fight for them even if it pissed him off.

DS was SO shocked. He just had no idea at all what it meant to be a woman. He adjusted his beliefs about TERFs after that, to do him credit. We don't agree at all - but he is respectful not scornful of our very different positions.

Peer pressure is a funny old thing but "I'm very disappointed in you" also has it's merits....

Also:

'You are too intelligent to believe this'

Which was a wonderful put down used by Grayson Perry to Ian Hislop on HIGNFY. Hislop didn't know whether to be flattered or insulted.

He still knows what a ‘proper’ man or woman is!

He's one of those rapey women.

What a strange reaction from them!

Ah yes. Rapistgender.

Remind me what pronouns they use again? I want to be sure I can spot one.

Devi/Ant.

Sorry @MissScarletInTheBallroom ,I meant to quote there.

The dog is sleeping on my keyboard.

I will use this

"You are too intelligent to believe this." That's fabulous. Saving for my backhanded compliment collection.