Oh dear

[GnomeDePlume]

I finally 'came out' to my DS(25) & DH that I believe TW are men.

Got a strong lecture from DS about how that means I am Transphobic. He has now gone off in a huff.

DH has gone silent.

Up until now we have kind of skirted the issue. From time to time I have been lectured on the apparent evil of JKR.

But the bravery of MNers in standing up to this IRL meant that I felt I could no longer continue saying nothing in my own home.

So leave him. He’s a woman hater. You can’t believe that a fully grown man with a penis and balls miraculously becomes a woman just because “they said so”.

you also can’t believe a fully grown man with penis and balls suddenly becomes no threat to women because “they said so”.

if that were the case, ask your husband how he’d feel about you sharing a hotel room with a non trans man who “says” he’s no threat?

I mean what male bodied person is going to ADMIT they’re a danger to women? Hmmm I’d bet none! So why would a trans woman admit they’re a danger to women? They wouldn’t. We have to guard ourselves simply because of the “having of a male body” - all transwomen HAVE A MALE BODY! (I can assume he doesn’t believe that women who have mastectomies or hysterectomies suddenly become male bodied, right? Or does he now think AngelinaJolie is a man because she had to have her breasts removed?)

and guess what?! I was spiked and attempted rape BY A TRANSWOMAN. So it does happen. And every little twat out there arguing for no reason that transwomen are no threat - well trust me, i was attacked and under threat. But apparently I don’t matter…because I’m a woman, ironically!

your husband is a spineless, sexiest pig who will choose some random fictional man who declares he’s a woman over an actual woman - his wife.

I have not heard this!!! Love it 😁😁

This was the absolute burn my TWAW son just couldn't take.

He is straight, and walked right into my seemingly innocent question about whether he would consider dating a TW. His face!

Yeah, so you don't actually believe TWAW, do you? Didn't think so. Come back and we can talk when you have some courage in your convictions.

He hasn't challenged my TERFing since.

OP, rather than jumping straight into the (many, valid) reasons that "Twaw" hurts women, could you start by just asking "Do you think men and women actually think really differently then?"

The followup depends on their answer: if "yes", ask them how, maybe get some examples. Hopefully just the act of saying this stuff out loud means they will start to feel less certain by themselves as they realise they are making pretty sexist comments, but if not you can always point it out to them.

If "no" then the next question is of course "well if being a woman isn't about how someone thinks, what is it that makes a TW a woman?" Again, the idea is not to make arguments to them as that's likely to make them more entrenched, it's to get them thinking properly so they come up with the flaws all by themselves.

The absurdity (okay, one of many absurdities) is that in many ways DH and I perform opposite gendered roles. I am main breadwinner by a country mile, working FT. DH works PT and performs the 'homemaker' role. He does all cooking/shopping/laundry and more of the housework. When DCs were small he was SAHP.

If we were to describe our roles to someone who didnt know us the assumption would be that I had the 'man's' role and DH had the 'woman's' role. This especially given that we are in our late 50s. We do respect each other's roles and DH knows he has a very nice life.

The snakes analogy is a good one and one which I will try to discuss with DS. I'm not looking for 'gotchas' with him, more I want him to think more critically about his SM. He was gleeful when JKR was accused of holocaust denial. I'm not sure if he is aware that a journalist had to make a full apology about this but as he has gone quiet on the subject I suspect his SM has gone quiet.

A lie is halfway round the world while the truth is still pulling on its boots

I don't even think it's a case of being "past the point of being kind".

It is, and always has been, about who you are choosing to be kind to.

In order to be kind to trans women who want to compete in women's sports, you have to be actively unkind towards the female athletes competing in those events. You have to say, "Yes, we know you've spent years training really hard to get to the level you're currently at, and yes we know that allowing a male athlete to compete in your category means one of you won't qualify at all and those who do will now have a much reduced chance of winning through no fault of your own. But we need to be kind to this person who has a male body but believes they identify as one of you."

In order to be kind to trans women who want to use women's toilets and changing rooms, you have to be actively unkind to all the women who need or would prefer these spaces to remain single sex. You have to say, "Yes, we know that you don't feel comfortable getting changed in front of a stranger with a penis. Yes, we know that it means some of you will no longer be able to use these spaces due to your religious beliefs. Yes, we know that this will be traumatic for some of you who have been raped or sexually assaulted. Yes, we know it increases the risk of you actually being raped or sexually assaulted because literally any man will be able to enter these spaces simply by saying that he is a woman, there is no way of checking whether they are a real trans woman or not. Yes, we know there is no way of checking whether someone has had their penis removed or not before they enter that space. But we need to be kind to a small number of people with gender dysphoria who feel unable to use these spaces alongside their own sex, which means they must have free access to your spaces because they believe they identify as one of you, which means we cannot gatekeep access to your spaces at all."

You can do this with every example.

If you do it with rape crisis groups, it's not even that in order to be kind to trans women who have been raped we need to make sure they have access to appropriate rape crisis groups. (Nobody is saying they should be denied that.) It's that single sex rape crisis groups for female rape survivors cannot be allowed to exist because their very existence might hurt the feelings of unidentified trans people who may or may not have been raped themselves.

Spell out a few of these examples of what being kind to trans people means you have to do to women, and ask why only this one group is deserving of our kindness.

Because it's not actually kind and never has been. At best it is misguided, at worst it is misogynistic and cruel.

This is actually quite promising because it tells you that your son is simply repeating what he has read on SM, without any critical thinking. Many young people are like this, it is their culture, one we, thankfully, never had to contend with.

As an educated intelligent young person if he could apply some critical thinking, gently prompted by you, he will see where his accusations against you (and therefore any other person who states facts about biological sex) don’t add up.

Bravo op! Stand your ground and educate those men in your household.

I've never understood how pretending TWAW and pretending the journey to get there (for the purpose of argument) didn't happen is being kind.

How does that help other poor gender confused people to just say x (who is a man) is now just a run if the mill woman. And then delete all 'history' for fear of misgendering. Even if you support this movement entirely and are happy to ignore women's rights and protections, I can't square that circle.

I'd perhaps try turning it around. If TWAW then TMAM. So if your son plays a sport, say rugby, he'd genuinely be happy to launch his full body weight at and tackle a trans man? No part of his brain would say 'this doesn't seem right'?

Similarly if your niece/god daughter decides she is a man, your husband would see absolutely no issue with that person sitting in the bath after the game with a load of men while she has in tact female parts. He wouldn't think for a second that might be problematic for her or that it might get the wrong kind of attention.

Challenge on scenarios and see how they manage their thinking

I hope you stressed the problem that TWAW is homophobic, sexist and often racist.

If not, do it, THEN see their faces.

I think considering the trans man aspect is useful for those males who see the fears of women as hysterical and file in the 'it never happens'

I'm sorry you raised a child who can't think beyond the end of his nose.

Isn't it actually way more homophobic to believe that an effeminate male is not a real man?

Flipping it a bit to transmen can be helpful; ask them why it may not be appropriate to house a trans man in a male prison?

Is it appropriate for a transman to join a gay dating site?

Why aren't there loads of transmen and transmen doing well in sport?

I am in à very similar situation. I've just stopped talking about it at all. I know my husband thinks I'm an idiot.

I’m really sorry for you, OP. Your dismay and astonishment and disappointment come across strongly, especially since your son has spent his life in an ‘atypically- gendered role household’.

This kept me awake for quite a long time last night; I couldn’t quite imagine how two men could actually deny their own biological experience to the face of the prime provider of that experience. Never mind his sexual preferences (male, female or any permutation thererof) , your son couldn’t have been conceived by or born from a trans woman. He is denying the gift of life which you gave him, and that is base.

When is he going to find a home of his own and support himself ? Instead of biting the hand that feeds him ( and the breast that suckled).

Thepartnersdesk
I'd perhaps try turning it around. If TWAW then TMAM. So if your son plays a sport, say rugby, he'd genuinely be happy to launch his full body weight at and tackle a trans man? No part of his brain would say 'this doesn't seem right'?

Actually Rugby is a really good example to give, because World Rugby have been good on this issue, probably because Rugby is known not just as a contact sport, but a collision sport and they can see the liability for female players.

World Rugby do not allow biological males to compete with females, even if those males suppress their testosterone, and they acknowledge that it doesn't undo the many advantages of male puberty.

OP if your son is interested in Rugby you could show him the trangender guidelines - they use all the annoying terms like cisgender and assigned at birth, so he might not reject it completely as being terfy.

https://www.world.rugby/the-game/player-welfare/guidelines/transgender/faqs

Women have done their duty by being kind to everyone. It's time for men to step up and be kind to women. Excluding trans women from women's spaces isn't because they're all perverts, its' because they're all men. Going into women's spaces shouldn't be a reward for not being a pervert if you're a man.

yes my 14 year old and 12 year old DSs say the same. There is a trans child in DS1's class and older DS just says 'She's confused and likes wearing the boys uniform'. With a shrug. Younger DS told me that there was a 'craze' among the girls to pretend to be boys because it gets them noticed. As far as I am aware there are no male-to-female trans.

That rugby document is absolutely fascinating!

For men who see women as support humans, a man who wants to be seen as a woman means another support human - hurrah! And get out of proper men's space.

For men who are made uncomfortable by men wanting to be seen as women, they don't want to share space with them.

They don't necessarily really want trans women in women's spaces, they just don't want them in men's spaces. Women's spaces present a convenient solution which doesn't inconvenience them one iota.

TRAs have seized on this. People like my DS don't realise they are being manipulated. And maybe to an extent don't care very much as it doesn't cost them anything at all and they get to feel virtuous at the same time.

DS is still keeping out of the way. DH still hasn't said anything but starts work at 6am so not really the time for a deep conversation.

I know, it's an interesting read. There is a sports science researcher called Ross Tucker who did a lot of work on this issue, and thankfully they acknowledged it would be a liability to put men in women's games.
Still, it's annoying to read the ideological language scattered throughout - it's like they almost get it, but still have to pretend they done...weird. At least they are doing better than the IOC, who are shit on this.

Actually OP, you could talk to your son about it in a sense of 'these men can be seen as women in some circumstances, but there are important time when we need to keep them out' - and use Rugby as an example, not sure if that would work.

As for your husband, could you speak to him privately away from your son and say you are disappointed that he doesn't acknowledge sex differences, given that they affect women far more than men.
Maybe ask him a few leading questions and see where he goes with it - Would he have sex with a TW? If not, why not? Does he think you should have to share a changing room with a fully grown male in a dress? If not, why not? Does he know that most of these men keep their genitalia? Why is he so uncomfortable with men who chose to present in this way in men's spaces?

I don't think men who say TWAW think of TW as women at all. TW have very much been treated as special men. Trans ideology has used "old boys" networks and influence to change policies and capture all institutions of power largely behind closed doors. Trans ideology doesn't trouble the patriarchal status quo one bit, and men are often very sympathetic to the plight of other men. A recipe for success!!

If men thought of TW as W, we'd hear fuck all about them.

My guess is that many men faced with the plight of a transwoman are thinking one of the following:

"This could easily have been me, let's give him what he wants" or

"This could NEVER be me, hence he must be really serious, let's give him what he wants" or

"I don't really get it, but I'm told it's progressive and I'm sick of people telling me I have white middle class male privilege so I'll take the brownie points for going along with this" or even

"On some level I'm attracted to this man but I'm straight; this makes me uncomfortable. I'd be happier if he was in the ladies"

Remember the language around trans ideology has been designed to obfuscate, shape shift and confuse.

I'd be tempted to cut out some of the linguistic dancing around and make it clear that I knew perfectly well that DS and DH know what a woman is (I promise you they do know. Otherwise how do they know their mother/ wife isn't a transwoman? Have they ever asked you?)

I might try starting at the point of "why do you feel it necessary to go along with this particular faith based belief / untruth? What are the potential implications of doing this, and of not doing this, for you? And for me?"