Oh dear

[GnomeDePlume]

I finally 'came out' to my DS(25) & DH that I believe TW are men.

Got a strong lecture from DS about how that means I am Transphobic. He has now gone off in a huff.

DH has gone silent.

Up until now we have kind of skirted the issue. From time to time I have been lectured on the apparent evil of JKR.

But the bravery of MNers in standing up to this IRL meant that I felt I could no longer continue saying nothing in my own home.

Same here.

Been there, done that, didn't end well. #solidarity.

All I said was TWAM and need to stay out of toilets/changing rooms.
STBXH firmly believes the Wii spa girl created the problem because she didn't look away from the naked man. But he's an abusive man so it might be more misogyny than true belief.
DD1 got taught TWAW so she's right and has certificates to prove she passed a level biology and PSHE, and I know nothing as science has moved on since dinosaurs roamed the earth. She also called me a TERF in derision but I claimed that name proudly which stumped her 😂
DD2 says her female friends (autistic or selfharm) are transmen so please don't hurt their feelings, and gets teary eyed.

So...it is no longer discussed but they know my line. They are men, and they can bugger off out of female spaces. And I'm grumpy enough nowadays to tell a strange man that if I find one in the wrong place.

You could also say something like, "When Isla Bryson gets out of prison, he'll be free to use public toilets and changing rooms. Why do you think it's more appropriate for him to be getting changed in the women's changing rooms next to me, or your dear old mum or our 13 year old niece, rather than in the men's changing rooms next to you?"

DS said that excluding TW from women only spaces was assuming that all TW are perverts.

I pointed out that since the violent and sex offending profile for TW is the same as for other men, women didnt know which were okay and which werent.

At that point I had kind of committed myself!

Ask him how you would make and enforce a rule which stops Isla Bryson from using the women's communal showers at your gym but allows the nice trans women to use them.

DS said that excluding TW from women only spaces was assuming that all TW are perverts.
Ask him how we can tell the difference. And while he's at it can he tell us how we can see which men are the good ones and which ones are rapists as well. Ta!

Well done OP. I genuinely think that men don’t give it any serious thought. It doesn’t directly affect them, so it’s far easier to “be kind” - and accepting TWAM is sometimes seen as threatening to masculinity in general 🙄.

They do seem to develop a lot more interest if you demonstrate how it could affect their more vulnerable family members - a young daughter getting changed for swimming or intimate care provided for an elderly mother. Considering how they would have felt as the father of the girl assaulted by Katie Dolatowski can be very interesting for Dads with young daughters.

None of that really helps OP though, maybe just ask lots of questions if DS is up for trying to save you a discussion?

But surely if excluding transwomen suggests they’re all perverts, then excluding all men suggests they’re all perverts?

If they think they get to accuse you of (imagined) transphobia, take it straight back to them and ask them to justify the reason for their blatant gynophobia.

Why do they believe that females are not entitled to female-only safe spaces? Surely they don't also believe that TW are female? If they do, ask them to define what they understand the word 'female' to mean - without using the word itself in their definition?

How does what the word 'female' defines differ from what the word 'male' defines? Do they believe that a dog could be a cat if it played with a ball of wool? Would they be content to have complex surgery performed by somebody with no experience or qualifications as a surgeon, but who nevertheless really, really, truly did believe that they were a surgeon and thus identified that way?

If a TW is an actual woman, why the need for the prefix 'trans'? How do they feel about people who claim to be transage or transrace - is a white man who was born 55 years ago actually a little black pre-school girl if he truly feels that he is? If they don't think that he is, how do they explain their transphobia? Could either of them identify as Prince William's older brother and be the next king?

If identifying as something makes it that you are that something, how are you all going to plan spending all of that money when they identify as multi-millionaires?

Well done, OP 💪

I take the view that if any of my young adult children are uncomfortable because I don't believe humans can change sex, their discomfort is their problem, not mine, although I am mindful of not doing anything that would compromise the career prospects of the ones who are in academia. I seem to recall that there's evidence that young people are influenced more by their parents than by their peers in the long term.

DH went from, "If you exclude transwomen from women's sports you're throwing lots of people under a bus," to, "Actually, if you DON'T exclude transwomen from women's sports you're throwing lots of people under a bus," almost with the snap of a finger, and has even gone on to revise his longstanding belief that as a gentle and unthreatening man he can go into an all-female gathering and be regarded as "just like one of the girls". He's absolutely got my back.

Ask him why society can't expand the definition of "man" rather than the definition of "woman".

A person with a penis who is wearing a dress has more in common with men than they do with women, especially in places like changing rooms where everyone is stripping off anyway.

Why can't men be kind? And no, I don't mean being kind by telling us that we have to welcome people with penises into women's spaces, but by actually welcoming those people into their own spaces themselves?

I'm worried that DS & DH's reaction is a sign of how little respect they have for women in general and me in particular.

On the whole we try to keep a harmonious home. We managed to avoid door slamming or shouting at each other throughout the teenage years.

This feels big somehow.

All of this.

Plus I'd be tempted to go all postmodern about my understanding of the definition of nouns that are particularly important to them, seeing as they're happy to leave you without a noun (woman) to accurately describe yourself. You could have quite a bit of fun with this.

Sport is actually a really good lever for turning well meaning men who haven't given it much thought before into card carrying TERFs, in my experience.

You get them to agree that actually it is completely outrageous that male athletes are competing as women and everyone can see that's not fair.

Then when you've got them to that point, ask them why that's where they're choosing to draw the line when women are being sexually assaulted in prison and denied single sex rape crisis support.

How do you think they'd react if you put it like that?

If you said that this conversation has made you sad because you didn't think you married or raised a man who has so little respect for women that they don't think we deserve to have some single sex spaces or even a name for ourselves, and it's making you wonder whether they see you as a lesser human.

I really hope for your sake this isn't the case. Good luck.

My partner was horrified when I first voiced concerns. But he's scientifically minded so spent hours "educating himself" before coming back to apologise. I never told him at the time, but this would have been a deal breaker, because he knows the shit I've been through simply for being female

💐 I think that’s one of the hardest things. The realisation that many men still think of women as support humans rather than actual humans that matter with thoughts & needs that go beyond making sure men feel happy and supported

your DS is young and been steeped in the TWAW culture and hopefully will learn as he gets older but DH should have your back!

My partner was horrified when I first voiced concerns. But he's scientifically minded so spent hours "educating himself" before coming back to apologise.

I have had this with some scientifically minded friends. They're good eggs.

My son emailed me a link to some nutjob calling KJK a Nazi,I replied with 'Are you thinking about moving out'?

He's hasn't mentioned it again.

Solidarity with you, OP.

Lately I’ve been wondering what someone who believes TWAW would say if I asked them if I could be a trans woman, and if not, why not.

The daft thing is that they are all scientifically minded. Two of them are actual scientists with proper grown up degrees and everything.

DH enjoys watching women's sport and used to be strongly in favour of sex based segregation in sport. He has always been quite progressive in his expressed views.

I would like to talk about the Cass report but DS is too deep in his SM fuelled views. DH is pretending it isn't happening.

Still got the dog to talk to I suppose!

Exactly. This argument completely pisses me off. It shows that the people arguing for it don't use logical thought processes. (Of course, their lack of logic makes it easy to knock down their arguments, but why do we have to waste time countering morons?)

I like the sound of this, but I don’t think I have the creativity to do it. Can you think of an example?

Re saying keeping transwomen out of changing rooms is the same as implying that they’re all perverts. Link this to how we ask all staff who work with children to get DBS checks. When I am asked to provide a DBS check for work, i don’t take offence and ask if the hiring manager thinks I abuse children.

@GnomeDePlume well done. I've recently had a similar discussion in my house, with young adult DS. It led to a big row, some slamming of doors, and later on a slightly uneasy truce. We haven't discussed it again. I know DH agrees with me but prefers to keep his head down.