Older generations show resistance to trans rights

[Inauthentic]

"Millennials and Gen Z tend to be overwhelmingly supportive of trans people, having grown up in a more inclusive environment, while older generations show far more resistance to trans rights, likely intimidated by the speed of social change."

Is this your experience?
There appears to be an overwhelming support for gender critical beliefs on Mumsnet.
Is it because it's mainly older generations engaging in this debate?

How old are you and what are your views?

I am 45yo and I mostly support trans rights (with the exception of trans athletes competing in woman's events and I agree puberty blockers is a grey area)

@ForCoralFox

‘Misogynistic’ says the poster who can look a collection of cross dressing middle aged men, claim that they are women and declare anyone pointing out the bleeding obvious ‘disgusting’.

Oh, OK. I guess I have a different definition of ‘misogynistic’ to you then then.

I do not believe that individual women's consent needs to be sought before other people can use publicly accessible facilities alongside them.

Exactly. "It's the structure of your brain, how your brain works, your hormones"

You said it all yourself right there. It's our hormones that play the most pivotal role in our gender. If you are born a male you will have male hormones. If you then have to take artificial hormones to "be a woman" you are not a real woman!

Well, sorry, that is what they look like! I'm not saying looking like that is a bad thing? But that's what they look like! If it has any bearing on their opinions on the subject, I don't know
Also you appear to have missed the more important 90% of my post.

The meaning of the word "woman" was utterly stable for well over a thousand years (and considerably longer in some other languages) until about five minutes ago. Why do you think that might be?

I’m 55yo.
I dint care what people wear. I dint care what pronouns they use.
But I do care about biology. I do care about protecting women. And I care about bullying attitude.
Which means that for me the issue isn’t in the trans person but around self determination because it leaves the door open to men abusing the system. I’m thinking about the ‘chest feeding’ trans grand mother, the issue with language in medical settings and the transwomen in women prisons for example.

My dc is 20yo and has moved from being all ok with trans people. What does it have to do with you? attitude to one that is closer to me - aka some limits are needed. Interestingly, he also thinks that it’s a generational issue. That a lot if the issues around bathrooms, prison, refuges fir women etc… are from the ‘older’ generation rather than his..l.

Trying to frame this issue as a problem of "older people" is a bit daft tbh. We have a protected category of people they are called women.Their rights are protected in this country and in all other advanced democracies. We have our own toilets our own safe spaces which we all take for granted now but these rights were fought for for years and we still don't have full equality. So what rights do you say are denied to trans people. What in fact are trans rights.?
You say you support this vague notion of rights but then say they shouldn't be allowed to compete against women.??
As for the mutilation of children, both physically and emotionally by way of gender reassignment this should be banned.
The trans lobby is dangerous for women and children and wooly thinking like yours only allows its poison to flourish. A man putting a frock on does not become a woman. Be proud of being a woman, be proud of our differences to them and tell trans women to fuck off and find their own space.
PS have you noticed how most of these trans are men wanting to compete against women, not many women wanting to compete against men

Every language has a word for 'mother' and 'woman'.

And there's a reason for that.

Men already have their own facilities - they have their own specially designed urinals to use accessible to them. So they need to use them.

Not only in a medical context.

You acknowledged in an earlier post that it is also relevant to the question of what prison a male rapist should be accommodated in, for example.

OK, so let's talk about the medical context.

The NHS doesn't communicate with the public by saying that XY people should get their prostates checked and XX people should have smear tests.

So what language does the NHS actually use to communicate this information to ordinary people?

If the NHS cannot say "men should get their prostates checked" and "women should have smear tests", how can it tell the relevant people what their healthcare needs are?

How should we define women then? What makes a woman different to a man? Or a girl different to a boy? Hint - it's not feelings.

I'm not talking about individual women, I'm talking about women as a group.

Why should the wishes of a small group of male people to use women's single sex spaces trump the wishes of a much larger group of female people for those spaces to be single sex?

What would you say to parents whose adult son has suddenly demanded that the parents should call him "she" and stop using the name he has been known as for a few decades? Do you have any concept of how confusing and hurtful that is to parents, and how worried they may be that their son may damage his body by using androgen blockers and oestrogen, or even progress to extreme body modification surgery with sometimes horrific outcomes?

Being very nice and understanding is OK for those who don’t really love the person in question; they can afford to go along with affirming a mental state which attempts to deny physical reality. Parents have either to accept trans ideology or struggle with what trans ideology does to close relationships.

I’m told that women married to transitioning older men, and their children, have similar experiences. The transgender person is not the centre of the universe. Trans ideology has nothing to say to anyone else except that the transgender person is the only person that matters and we must all deny our sceptical instincts, forget physical reality, ignore our cognitive dissonance, get over our "bigotry" and accept the nonsensical and incoherent trans worldview. Our pain is dismissed and our life experience is ignored. Trans ideology is so kind and enlightened, based as it is on the internal viewpoint of the only person who matters.

I am also interested to know what rights you are talking about.

How would you explain to a Transwoman that you are excluding her/him from competitive sports (and would you be prepared to tweet that explanation under your own name?)

It seems like you would agree with Kathleen Stock that when you say TWAW, you are participating in an immersive fiction. You know perfectly well that TWAM but are prepared to go along with it for your own convenience and feel anger at those who are not? Or is it something different for you?

This is dangerous, and would inevitably lead to a society where perverted behaviour becomes the norm. It's not about "individual" women's consent either. It's about consent full stop. You would not allow your bog standard man into these spaces so why should a man in a dress be allowed in. These spaces are not "publicly accessible" to everyone either. They're designated as male only, or female only. You're rewriting the rules to fit your point.

Great post.

There are in fact zero people in the world who are not either female or male. The cohort you are thinking of, those who are have ambiguous genitalia at birth and who require chromosome tests to determine their sex, is only a small proportion of the 0.018% of people born with Differences of Sexual Development.

Every condition or genetic difference which causes a DSD affects male development OR female development. So nothing proves that sex is binary more than the existence of DSDs.

I know the thread has moved on a lot but I have to say something about this in the OP.
Millennials and Gen Z tend to be overwhelmingly supportive of trans people, having grown up in a more inclusive environment, while older generations show far more resistance to trans rights, likely intimidated by the speed of social change

I know it's great fun to try to frame older generations as bigoted old fuddy-duddies like it's 1962 and only the kids are inclusive and trendy etc but speaking as an older Millennial, who does the OP think created that inclusive environment they grew up in? Far from being terrified of social change, it was our grandparents - great-grandparents even - who instigated the rapid social changes that resulted in that more inclusive environment.

In England and Wales in 1967 - 57 years ago, even before many of those boring old women who evilly think they have rights and refuse to be support humans to bluehairs were born - gay sex was decriminalised and the Abortion Act was passed. Many of the MPs who voted on that legislation would have been well into their 50s at least, a lot would probably have been born when Victoria was still on the throne. But yeah, 'intimidated by the speed of social change' when they actually created it while current great-grandparents were still in school. It's Year Zero politics, and the truth is that it's also far less progressive than previous generations.

Puberty blockers are a grey area........ Can't believe anyone would minimise to such an extent. Have you actually read up about the scandal? Dismissing someone's opinion because you believe them to be old is just insulting. I'm a millennial btw if that makes my comment weigh more.

"Your doctor's surgery or a hospital is literally the only place where your biological sex should be relevant."

What this post tells us is that there are some people who don't seem to have any depth of understanding in how overcoming negative sex based discrimination works and how equity works. And how even in some workplaces, understanding the limitations of a female body compared to a male body is vital for safety and protection.

And it goes without saying that this post seems to completely ignore the reality of sport and safety. In fact, it seems to be irrelevant to the reality of life in general.

I find it baffling that the generation of women who fought for women's rights, including abortion rights- and gay rights, often at great personal sacrifice, who enabled the setting up of refuges for the victims of domestic violence and who were vocal about anti racism have suddenly all become bigots.

There is a bit of parallel there, in my opinion.

Some people use biological attributes (for example penis) as an only indication of how the person should identify.

In the past many people used an argument that homosexuality is not natural. A men with penis shouldn't desire another man because it's against biology?

Your parallel is nonsensical and illogical. Here's a similar one:
'Many people used to say that a dog that prefers to eat vegetables and hates eating meat was against biology! Obviously nobody these days would think the dog should be forced to eat meat, but some people still think that what makes a dog a dog is its biological/genetic attributes. I think this is so wrong! Some animals which are biologically dogs are actually rabbits.'

The "older generations" fought long and hard for the rights we now have, only to now have to sit back and watch those right be slowly erased.

No need to be baffled, it's because they were mean to men as they didn't fight for them too.

Great post.

How disgusting to collect a bunch of photos of women, merely to mock their appearance and sneer at them for not being traditionally feminine enough.

Ah yes. Ye Olde Fulle Englishe Woman Experience.