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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Older generations show resistance to trans rights

1000 replies

Inauthentic · 07/04/2024 22:36

"Millennials and Gen Z tend to be overwhelmingly supportive of trans people, having grown up in a more inclusive environment, while older generations show far more resistance to trans rights, likely intimidated by the speed of social change."

Is this your experience?
There appears to be an overwhelming support for gender critical beliefs on Mumsnet.
Is it because it's mainly older generations engaging in this debate?

How old are you and what are your views?

I am 45yo and I mostly support trans rights (with the exception of trans athletes competing in woman's events and I agree puberty blockers is a grey area)

OP posts:
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MyWyndolynne · 08/04/2024 09:20

If you've had sex with people of the same sex multiple times you're not straight.

This is why the world's in shambles.

Why can't people just use the correct terminology. You know, reality of language?

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 08/04/2024 09:21

ForCoralFox · 08/04/2024 08:25

How disgusting to collect a bunch of photos of women, merely to mock their appearance and sneer at them for not being traditionally feminine enough. Of course they should be able to use whichever changing rooms they wish to.

Heh. You had me going for a minute there.

fedupandstuck · 08/04/2024 09:22

@ForCoralFox ok, so I think you're agreeing with me now that it's just a misunderstanding about the definitions of those labels rather than the labels themselves being fluid. "Straight" or "bisexual" refers to your sexual attraction, and doesn't tell you anything about the actual sexual encounters anyone has had. After all, someone with no sexual experiences at all can still know what their sexuality is.

AlisonDonut · 08/04/2024 09:22

Let's go back to comparing how they treated gay people and how they treat 'trans' people.

I say 'trans' as nobody can ever define it but anyway.

In the past they treated gay people with drugs to castrate them. The trans lobby say this is bad.

In the current time they are treating kids who say they are trans with the exact same drugs, kids who are more than likely to grow up gay, and the trans lobby say this is good.

The gender critical people say this is bad.

So who is right? The trans lobby want gay kids castrated at an early age just like they used to treat gay adults decades ago.

It is a switch and bait to compare what used to happen to gay people back then and to use that to do the exact same thing now.

Shame on you for using gay history to castrate gay kids now.

WickedSerious · 08/04/2024 09:23

ForCoralFox · 08/04/2024 09:16

Well actually all those encounters happened when I was very drunk or on drugs, and I never enjoyed them. I have had sexual partners numbering in the triple figures, and can count my same sex partners on the fingers of one hand. A tiny proportion. My partner can count all his sexual partners on the fingers of one hand, and has had one same sex partner, so a much higher proportion. He is attracted to both sexes, whereas I'm only attracted to men.

Drugs you say?

Okay then.

AlisonDonut · 08/04/2024 09:24

MyWyndolynne · 08/04/2024 09:20

If you've had sex with people of the same sex multiple times you're not straight.

This is why the world's in shambles.

Why can't people just use the correct terminology. You know, reality of language?

Dictionaries are for boomers.

Verbal diarrhoea is now in.

Brainworm · 08/04/2024 09:24

The world is not simple and people don't fit into neat little boxes

Someone not fitting into a box, doesn't mean there is something wrong with the box, or the person. It just means they don't fit it.

Someone who does fit in to the box but doesn't want to be in it, also doesn't mean the box is wrong, or the person. It just means they don't want to be in it.

Someone not fitting their own ideas about what being their natal sex entails doesn't mean they are not their natal sex.

There are less than 0.02 people in the world who do not clearly fit into the categories males or female. For those outside these people, if they are struggling, knowing whether they would need to wear a condom or not for safe sex would be a simple indicator.

For those who don't like the natal sex box in which they fit, they are fever going to convince wider society that they belong in the other.

Society can support the creation of other boxes, based on thoughts and feeling, and others may or may not fit in them, but this will be determined by the individuals themselves, not materiality.

ForCoralFox · 08/04/2024 09:24

MyWyndolynne · 08/04/2024 09:20

If you've had sex with people of the same sex multiple times you're not straight.

This is why the world's in shambles.

Why can't people just use the correct terminology. You know, reality of language?

When I was unable to properly consent, I didn't enjoy it, and am never actually attracted to women.

You don't get to tell me my sexuality. Are closeted men in conservative societies who marry women and never have sex with men out of shame or fear actually straight?

AlisonDonut · 08/04/2024 09:25

ForCoralFox · 08/04/2024 09:24

When I was unable to properly consent, I didn't enjoy it, and am never actually attracted to women.

You don't get to tell me my sexuality. Are closeted men in conservative societies who marry women and never have sex with men out of shame or fear actually straight?

Is this thread now going to be all about you?

fedupandstuck · 08/04/2024 09:26

MyWyndolynne · 08/04/2024 09:20

If you've had sex with people of the same sex multiple times you're not straight.

This is why the world's in shambles.

Why can't people just use the correct terminology. You know, reality of language?

That's not accurate though, as we surely know that many people experiment with sexuality and sometimes are pressured into experiences that are not what they would do given a totally free choice. The PP has been clear that those encounters were when she/he was in an altered state and that they didn't have any attraction to the same sex person.

ForCoralFox · 08/04/2024 09:26

fedupandstuck · 08/04/2024 09:22

@ForCoralFox ok, so I think you're agreeing with me now that it's just a misunderstanding about the definitions of those labels rather than the labels themselves being fluid. "Straight" or "bisexual" refers to your sexual attraction, and doesn't tell you anything about the actual sexual encounters anyone has had. After all, someone with no sexual experiences at all can still know what their sexuality is.

No. At least one person here definitely believes that I'm bisexual, because labels have contested meanings.

Crankywiddershins · 08/04/2024 09:27

ForCoralFox · 08/04/2024 08:22

What a disgustingly misogynistic post. Women don't form their views according to whether random men find them sexually attractive or not.

In addition, women don't stop being considered sexually attractive at 40 any more. The days of adopting a short, sensible haircut and putting on a frumpy dress on your fortieth birthday and suddenly being middle aged are long gone. Advancements in skincare, tweakments etc mean it's increasingly difficult to tell people's ages anyway, and people don't dress differently according to their age. There are plenty of older women with younger men. I know lots of ladies in their 60s and 70s who look amazing and are always out on dates and meeting new partners.

But that's all irrelevant because women don't form their opinions based on what men think of them, and I can't quite believe anyone on a supposedly feminist forum said that.

What a disgustingly ageist post! You've just accidentally entirely proved my point. You still know that those 60+ women are old even though they "make an effort"
Do you think that enough makeup, attractive hair styling and "sexy" clothes stop the aging process? Oh and skincare?
I think that life's too short for pretending to be something you're not. It's fine if women (and men too) want to dye their hair, wear what they want etc, but not doing so doesn't make you "frumpy" (your disgusting misogyny is showing) and you are still your age regardless, a bit like how men can't change sex!
And no! Women don't form their opinions based on what men think, but we do base some opinions on decades of experiencing sexism and misogyny. I can't quite believe anyone on a feminist forum thinks otherwise.

edited for clarity

fedupandstuck · 08/04/2024 09:28

@ForCoralFox are contested meanings the same as a deliberately fluid definition? We can discuss contested meanings and arrive at a conclusion as to the correct definition. You would not be able to do the same with a deliberately fluid definition.

ForCoralFox · 08/04/2024 09:28

WickedSerious · 08/04/2024 09:23

Drugs you say?

Okay then.

Most people use recreational drugs when they are younger. Some when they are older too. I personally no longer use them, but whether someone does or doesn't, it doesn't invalidate their opinions.

Bunnygirl1902 · 08/04/2024 09:28

I am mid 20s and I do not support the trans movement. I whole heartily disagree with men claiming to be women using women's spaces such as changing rooms, bathrooms, female only wards in hospitals and especially disagree with men participating in women's sports.

What people do in their private lives is up to them and I would never actively persecute someone if they want to wear whatever they want to wear. My problem is when those people then try to force their own beliefs onto other people, for example, making everyone use x,y,z pronouns that they identify with that day, indoctrinating children into taking hormones at such a vulnerable age, forcing women to be okay with a man coming into our private space when we are at our most vulnerable (e.g changing rooms) and labeling anyone that has a problem with that a so called 'bigot'. That I am not okay with. No matter what hormones or operations someone goes through you will never fully be able to change your biology from one sex to another.

ForCoralFox · 08/04/2024 09:30

fedupandstuck · 08/04/2024 09:28

@ForCoralFox are contested meanings the same as a deliberately fluid definition? We can discuss contested meanings and arrive at a conclusion as to the correct definition. You would not be able to do the same with a deliberately fluid definition.

We can try to reach an agreement, but will rarely succeed, because language is always fluid and open to different interpretations, and commonly understood meanings often evolve slowly over time.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 08/04/2024 09:32

ForCoralFox · 08/04/2024 08:55

I don't think we need to strictly define women. It's just a label. The definition can be fluid. We can use more scientific language to talk about biology or chromosomes when needed, which is rarely.

This doesn't make any sense.

You acknowledge, I think, that we need words to describe biological sex in humans.

Why should "man" and "women" not be among those words? They are words meaning "adult male human" and "adult female human".

ForCoralFox · 08/04/2024 09:32

Crankywiddershins · 08/04/2024 09:27

What a disgustingly ageist post! You've just accidentally entirely proved my point. You still know that those 60+ women are old even though they "make an effort"
Do you think that enough makeup, attractive hair styling and "sexy" clothes stop the aging process? Oh and skincare?
I think that life's too short for pretending to be something you're not. It's fine if women (and men too) want to dye their hair, wear what they want etc, but not doing so doesn't make you "frumpy" (your disgusting misogyny is showing) and you are still your age regardless, a bit like how men can't change sex!
And no! Women don't form their opinions based on what men think, but we do base some opinions on decades of experiencing sexism and misogyny. I can't quite believe anyone on a feminist forum thinks otherwise.

edited for clarity

Edited

I've written another post clarifying my meaning which you can choose to read or not. I'm not the misogynist here.

Helleofabore · 08/04/2024 09:33

Inauthentic · 07/04/2024 23:53

There is a bit of parallel there, in my opinion.

Some people use biological attributes (for example penis) as an only indication of how the person should identify.

In the past many people used an argument that homosexuality is not natural. A men with penis shouldn't desire another man because it's against biology?

Similarly, biologically it doesn't make sense that a man with penis can identify/ desire to be a woman?

I think that you are conflating quite a few disparate concepts to falsely support your 'parallel'.

It does all come down to understanding where discrimination is legitimate and not legitimate though. Plus understanding equality.

People who are same sex attracted (or to both sexes) were subject to illegitimate discrimination when people declared they should not access toilets of the same sex and that they could not access the same marriage rights as heterosexual people.

However, for clarity. these were male people accessing male toilets if they were a homosexual male. They were not asking for special treatment under any safeguarding principles or indeed, in life. They were asking, and rightfully so, for EQUAL treatment and equal protection.

Those seeking marriage were also not seeking 'additional' rights or special treatment, they were rightfully seeking equal protection and treatment.

Male people demanding access to female single sex spaces are demanding ADDITIONAL accommodations be made because of their gender identity. This is not a demand for equality.

It was always wrong to deny a person who was homosexual or bisexual access to a facility that matched their sex when that discrimination was based on their sexual orientation.

For instance, one group of male people have no extra rights over other male people. They cannot expect their demand to be obliged that they have privacy involving being completely separated from other male people in a facility designated as single sex for male people because they don't want to be there with male people of a different sexual orientation or race. Again, singling out same sex or both sex attracted people to be excluded, would be illegitimate discrimination.

This is, of course, not the same as the case for excluding all male bodies from female single sex spaces, except for male children under a particular age who would require care from a female person.

It is NOT wrong to exclude male people from a female single sex space because they are male.

There is a necessary form of discrimination that is used for calculating safeguarding risks which is based on sexed bodies. The only 'negative' impact it has is to exclude one sex from a space designated as single sex for safety purposes. This discrimination has been the basis of sex segregated spaces since those spaces became available to public life. Despite the deception that some male people used to gain access, and this deception now being wedged to leverage a false argument that female people 'never had toilets without male people accessing them'.

Male bodies are excluded from female single sex spaces also on the grounds of privacy and dignity. Not just safety.

Homosexual male people were wrongfully discriminated regarding access to toilets and changing rooms against based on no statistical evidence at all, just prejudice. This has, rightfully, been prevented with law. Because it was statistically inaccurate and wrong.

The fact remains that the comparator should start with 'does one group of male people have a lower risk profile compared to ALL other male people in the UK' ?

The answer for gay male people is 'no' and it was likely always no. The risk for gay male people can be said to be the SAME as for all other male people in the UK. Besides, they were not seeking unequal treatment.

If you are arguing that any male person over about 8 should be included in any single sex female space, you should need to provide evidence that the group of male people you are advocating for have not just a lower risk of committing sex crime than all other male people in the UK. You also need to provide evidence that they commit sex crime at the same or lower rate than all female people in the UK.

It is NOT wrong to exclude male people from a female single sex space because they are male. The protected characteristic is SEX not GENDER in this instance.

What you are doing with your 'parallel' could be said to be homophobic because you are attempting to leverage the situation of homosexual people for your own political agenda.

fedupandstuck · 08/04/2024 09:34

Interesting, as the definition of woman/man has not evolved over time until the last decade or so. Those words are some of the oldest words found in human language, and have not changed in their widely understood definition. So the recent attempts to destabilise the definitions aren't organic evolutions, it is a deliberate attempt by a small minority group to try to artificially shift language.

ForCoralFox · 08/04/2024 09:34

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 08/04/2024 09:32

This doesn't make any sense.

You acknowledge, I think, that we need words to describe biological sex in humans.

Why should "man" and "women" not be among those words? They are words meaning "adult male human" and "adult female human".

Edited

Only really in a medical context. XX and XY seem suitable to me, but I'm neither a doctor nor a biologist. I also believe some people are neither of those.

Carouselfish · 08/04/2024 09:35

Am 43. Wear what you like, call yourself what you like, dont expect everyone to pretend that alters material reality. Gender as a social construct is just silly stereotyping and having 100 different types just smacks of Seventeen magazine multiple choice quizzes for immature people desperate to label parts of their personality to feel belonging. Very regressive and nonsensical.
Happily know people 20s and early 30s who also think it's a massive load of bollocks and bringing up children to know the same. The only people I know who are fully KoolAid about it are fat, blue-haired nerdy girls in their 30s and a couple of women in their 50s who think of themselves as alternative and cool.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 08/04/2024 09:36

ForCoralFox · 08/04/2024 09:06

Oh I get it. Women who want to exclude trans women from facilities should unquestioningly have their views respected. But women who take a more inclusive view and are in favour of trans rights are pathetic little 'pick mes' (that's a misogynist term in itself) who haven't got to their 40s and formed their views through life experience, education, social interactions, reading and thinking, but are just having a knee jerk reaction to being butt hurt that men apparently no longer find them attractive. That was what the post said. Transphobic women should be taken seriously, but any women who are not gender critical are insecure bimbos who need to grow up. It's a funny kind of feminism where such a view is expressed and then endorsed by many others.

Why do you think you have the right to consent to women's spaces being made mixed sex, against the wishes of the women who do not consent?

borntobequiet · 08/04/2024 09:37

ForCoralFox · 08/04/2024 08:28

Frumpy refers to a style of dress, and has nothing whatsoever to do with age. It's just that in the past all women were expected to become frumpy once they hit 40, and now we have a choice.

In the past, many women’s health and appearance was undermined by the impact of childbearing, heavy domestic chores and lack of money and time to look after themselves. They weren’t in a position to look anything other than “frumpy”. Those with money, leisure and time could devote it to their health and appearance.
There’s a very funny account in Love in a Cold Climate of the transformation of the somewhat grotesque Lady Montdore into a dazzling society beauty, by the “exotic” cousin and heir Cedric.

ForCoralFox · 08/04/2024 09:37

Carouselfish · 08/04/2024 09:35

Am 43. Wear what you like, call yourself what you like, dont expect everyone to pretend that alters material reality. Gender as a social construct is just silly stereotyping and having 100 different types just smacks of Seventeen magazine multiple choice quizzes for immature people desperate to label parts of their personality to feel belonging. Very regressive and nonsensical.
Happily know people 20s and early 30s who also think it's a massive load of bollocks and bringing up children to know the same. The only people I know who are fully KoolAid about it are fat, blue-haired nerdy girls in their 30s and a couple of women in their 50s who think of themselves as alternative and cool.

Oh look. Another hugely misogynistic post, denigrating women on the basis of their age and appearance.

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