Dutch study proves kids grow out of gender dysphoria

[Hoardasurass]

A 15 year long dutch study has shown that gender dysphoria is temporary in most kids, I'm wondering how the activists will try and explain it 🤔

EXCL: Most kids grow out of desire to change sex, study suggests https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-13263725/trans-kids-change-sex-adults-study.html?ito=native_share_article-nativemenubutton

Anyway back to the OP. Thanks for posting an interesting and important study, which suggests that those clinicians who avoided an affirmative approach were right. It also suggests that those professionals and ‘allies’ who pushed children and young people down a pathway of life long medication, infertility and other related issues because of their ideology ought to be thoroughly ashamed. They won’t be, and some of them will probably turn up here to deflect, and to try and make themselves feel better about what they’ve done to their, and others, kids.

It (nearly) picks up one of the “at least” two criteria. So, it’s likely that a proper diagnosis would have led to a lower rate of desistance.

A follow-up study which uses the full diagnostic criteria as well as looking at the number of criteria matched correlated with desistance be very useful.

Kids grow out of many things:

Waking up at night
Watching CBeebies
Dressing up as pirates or frogs or ghosts
Making elaborate games across the floor
Trying to pick up dog poo when learning to walk

So why it never crossed the minds of all the parents, medical staff, psychologists, teachers etc who affirmed eight year olds who wanted to be the opposite sex by asking everyone to use different pronouns and names, or who affirmed the teenage girls who underwent double mastectomies (looking at the Irish “surgeon” 🤬) that these children would also grow out of this particular phase as they had grown out of all previous phases absolutely beggars belief.

I feel like I dodged a bullet with my somewhat gender non-conforming daughter. If she had announced 5 years ago that she was a boy and I had been advised by doctors to affirm this otherwise her mental health would be seriously affected I honestly don't know what I would have done. I was also a gender non conforming teen but this was back in the 80s where we had Annie Lennox, Bowie and Boy George saying dress how you like. I think I would have talked about my experiences of not wanting to be a woman (periods, discrimination, sexual harassment) and how that didn't mean I wanted to be a man. Anyhow, fortunately I didn't have to go through that but I do feel for any parent who is having to navigate these waters and I am very, very angry at gender ideologues who pushed affirmative care on to often very vulnerable teenagers and their families.

@DadJoke so you're saying gender dysphoria is a mental disorder? Controversial...

I did not say that. It’s not been defined as a mental disorder for many years.

Hmm, let's see what the DSM V has to say about that:

• Gender dysphoria: A concept designated in the DSM-5-TR as clinically significant distress or impairment related to gender incongruence, which may include desire to change primary and/or secondary sex characteristics. Not all transgender or gender diverse people experience gender dysphoria.

Gender dysphoria has not been defined as a “disorder” since 2018. I am not addressing this easily researched topic again.

https://www.mentalhealthjournal.org/articles/gender-incongruence-is-no-longer-a-mental-disorder.html

Why would it be in the DSM then? And why are you arguing about the diagnostic criteria? What is being diagnosed if it's not a disorder?

You brought the DSM into this by saying that the paper being discussed wasn't using the correct diagnostic criteria. And yet the DSM itself says that not all transgender people experience gender dysphoria. So why does it matter whether the subjects in the paper had a DSM diagnosis, seeing as it isn't necessary to have one to be transgender?

The study does not show what OP said it does in her title. It simply doesn’t.

It makes us look a bit mental to make claims that aren’t substantiated by the evidence we ourselves are presenting. It makes us look as ideologically captured as the side we are arguing against. It makes us look dishonest. And I prize honest debate very highly.

And the only place the phrase ‘science proves’ should be found is on the back of a shampoo bottle or anti-ageing cream. Science works by or weakening theories.

I’n not going pretend a poster I otherwise dislike is wrong on something he was actually right on.

Teen years are developmentally about identity and finding yours whilst also being included as of your peers' group identities.

Some think it was anthropologically useful for tribal bonding and the next generation of adults. There's a psychosocial development theory developed by Erik Erickson that 12-18 is a phase for identity development, lots of 'testing out' of roles and responsibilities and relationships. www.simplypsychology.org/erik-erikson.html

"Identifying as trans" It's a very obvious part of this process, especially, as we know, within sexist cultures whereby gender stereotyping is very prevalent.

Despite attempts to challenge stereotypes, Visual media on the internet and in the gaming world is still overwhelmingly very stereotyped.

Obviously teens will absorb the visual culture around them, as most of us did somehow (goth, emo, punk, horsy kid) mash it into experimental identity stuff and then move through it.

Meant to add the chart

Gender incongruence is the newer term for transsexualism, which is no longer defined as a disorder.

Gender dysphoria is defined as a mental disorder.

It is right there in the link you provided, as well as DSM V.

Just this. We all know children who go through phases like this. When I was small my best friend insisted she was a cow. Fortunately her parents did not send her off to market. Many children I know went through phases of saying they were the opposite sex. Sensible parents recognise this for just what it is.

It has been clear for some time that the vast majority of kids who are confused about their gender desist from feeling confused as they grow up.

What will it take for the ideologues to admit this simple truth?

I think it's time we started a campaign to stop the BBC using the outdated and misleading term 'trans kids'.

I agree that we should challenge terms like ‘trans kids’. They’ve been repeated so often people just accept them, as if it some sort of truth.

What there is are children and adults with gender identity disorder.

’Trans’ is a term that has been created to make it sound like an innate, fixed part of who they are in the same was as ethnicity is, or sex. And is therefore unchangeable and unquestionable. But it’s not. It’s a distressing condition that needs investigation into its causes and treatment.

At the risk of repeating myself it’s because the OP said “Dutch study proves kids grow out of gender dysphoria” when it does not.

Transgender people without dysphoria do not need hormones or gender confirmation surgery, so such adolescents aren’t really the source of gender critical concerns.

The study authors are very careful about what they are setting out to do, and OP (and Daily Mail) are misrepresenting it.

Transgender people without dysphoria do not need hormones or gender confirmation surgery, so such adolescents aren’t really the source of gender critical concerns.

The concern is that these kids are being transed by their schools and getting prescription meds from the grey and black markets.

Gender in congruence is the term used in the Cass report to cover the whole umbrella of kids who turned up at GIDS

The study OP referred to looks at gender discomfort in the population, which is arguably wider still when you look at the question asked for respondents to self report this.

The bottom line is that this study is not looking at a patient group but at a phenomena in the general population.

There is no need for this thread to discuss detailed definitions of GD, other than to acknowledge that this study is not focused on people with GD ( though some who may fit a diagnosis of this may be captured in the question asked) but is looking a wider concept of gender discontent in the general population.

It’s a really interesting study and its findings are clearly more supportive of the non-affirmative approach than the opposite. From our GC position, it’s another piece in a very large jigsaw rather than conclusive ‘proof’.

Also that orgs such as Mermaids have taught kids how to bullshit their way through a GD assessment.

@heathspeedwell even if you buy into the incorrect idea that this study is looking at kids with gender dysphoria, the vast majority, in fact, do not desist. It was the opposite. 80% still had “gender non-contentedness” at age 25.

I won’t be showing my dc this, they love nothing more than telling me how most people that transition do not change their minds and that she will always want to be a he. She’s 20 but very young for her age (autistic), I try not to mention it at all as she seems to be able to talk about it non stop once mentioned, as most people with autism they can fixate on things for a long time. I would like to think she would grow out of it but the older she gets the more unlikely it is to happen.

Transgender people without dysphoria do not need hormones or gender confirmation surgery, so such adolescents aren’t really the source of gender critical concerns

Well they are if society is expected to treat them as literally women ( when they are male) or literally men ( when they are female), in all and every circumstance.

I was happy to call TW she/ her when there was an understanding that was a polite fiction. I am no longer happy to do it when t”she/ her is meant to represent a literal truth. Because that has real world consequences for women’s spaces/ safety/ dignity and sport

Where does it say that? The abstract says the prevalence of gender non -content was drops from 11% to 4% in the general population?