Page 5 | Gay men seems to be solid trans supporters

mids2019 · 2024-03-19T07:28:02+00:00

Evan Davis, Graham Norton etc...... Gay men possibly seems to be quite supportive of trans issues and I wonder why this ? Do men think it is a natural or allowable extension of homosexuality to trans or do they identify with trans people as they are both in a minority? Is there a little bit of misogyny in a lot of gay men which surfaced when we see and hear drag queens? Has trans been successful at putting down GC views as they have successfully marketed themselves as the next step on in an inclusive and compassionate society from greater acceptance of honosexuality.

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 19/03/2024 21:53

Please do give us chapter and verse, Dadjoke, on how trans people kickstarted the gay rights movement on both sides of the Atlantic. You will, of course, address the evidence from people who were there that there were no trans people at the first demonstrations and working behind the scenes to get the law changed.

HeartofSaturdayNight · 19/03/2024 23:10

I see our resident homophobic "male" poster is back.

DadJoke · 20/03/2024 05:57

@HootyMcBooby that’s a really wild reading of that article. It sets out why the handful of detransitioners do so, and speculates that the rate amongst people who transition young might be higher. But it might not.

DadJoke · 20/03/2024 06:15

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 19/03/2024 21:53

Please do give us chapter and verse, Dadjoke, on how trans people kickstarted the gay rights movement on both sides of the Atlantic. You will, of course, address the evidence from people who were there that there were no trans people at the first demonstrations and working behind the scenes to get the law changed.

Moving the goalposts! Maupin said they were there at the start - in his experience. I suggest you read about Marsha P Johnson, Silvia Rivera and Major Griffin Gracey.

There is no point in arguing with me about it - Maupin said it. If you are genuinely interested in the tangled history of the LGBT movement, you have a library card.

Geebray · 20/03/2024 07:55

DadJoke · 20/03/2024 06:15

Moving the goalposts! Maupin said they were there at the start - in his experience. I suggest you read about Marsha P Johnson, Silvia Rivera and Major Griffin Gracey.

There is no point in arguing with me about it - Maupin said it. If you are genuinely interested in the tangled history of the LGBT movement, you have a library card.

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Fred Sargeant was actually at the Stonewall riots, and disagrees with you.

Sylvia Rivera: the dark truth about a trans icon - spiked (spiked-online.com)

Sylvia Rivera: the dark truth about a trans icon

The late New York drag queen was no hero of the gay-liberation movement.

https://www.spiked-online.com/2024/01/14/sylvia-rivera-the-dark-truth-about-a-trans-icon/

RebelliousCow · 20/03/2024 08:11

AyrshireTryer · 19/03/2024 10:32

I'm a supporter of people being allowed to be people. Whether they are trans man to woman or woman to man. I think most of the issue seems to come down to bathrooms. I'm the kind of person that always uses a cubicle and think the urinal is a pretty outdated kind of thing. Let's have more single entry cubicle toilets.
When you are part of a minority is there not a sort of code/logic in trying to support other minorities, as you know how it is to be marginalised. Is that not just common courtesy? I've often been called woke and I kind of like that.

You are suggesting mixed sex facilities...for what good reason?

The reason " it comes down to bathrooms" is because women and girls benefit and are protected by such single sex spaces.

Creating mixed sex facilities offers nothing of value to anyone, and in fact for most women and girls it is a retrograde step.

Sex based differences are not " outdated". Simply believeing there aren't any doesn't make them go away.

Women and girls are not a minority - they are half of the human race.

RebelliousCow · 20/03/2024 08:18

DadJoke · 19/03/2024 17:39

Some unpleasant generalisations about gay men. "Gay men are misogynistic" (implying more so than heterosexual men) "I don't even have a problem with drag queens but drag queens performing in schools is creepy" that gay men want to be in women's changing rooms, etc. Plenty.

"Transing away the gay" is a nasty gender critical trope which can go in the bin alongside ROGD. I am sure you can nutpick a handful of counter-examples, but people transition because they are transgender.

Transgender people are almost universally supported by the (still small, still oppressed) LGBT community, despite the handful of gay and lesbian people who are gender critical. Take a look the reaction to the presence of a tiny handful of "sex realists" at Pride for an example.

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Your arguments rest on a foundational belief - an article of faith.

Times have moved on and the unravelling of the gender industry is going on all around you - with reports, retractions, countries moving away from wholly affirmative practices...all in the light of evidence.

" Transing away the gay" is what gay practitioners at the Tavistock gender clinic reported themselves. They also report that young people seek to transition for all sorts of reasons.........'being trans' is simply the way of framing a disturbed mental state, or a set of desires, of the type that tend to cluster together in fairly predictable ways.

Ofcourseshecan · 20/03/2024 08:23

DialSquare · 19/03/2024 10:51

DadJoke is like a walking contradiction.

Trans are marginalised so must be supported in every way.........but women from marginalised groups are not entitled to single sex provision.

Throwing homophobia accusations around on this board........but transing away the gay is acceptable.

We must all be tarred with the same brush as everyone who knows humans can't change sex........but that rule doesn't apply in the opposite direction considering the many dodgy people who are part of the gender ideology "community".

And so on.

Yes, Dadjoke, who’s a transactivist, claims that gays are too. But then accuses those PPs who say the same thing of being homophobic!

But the trans movement is built on delusions, so you can’t really expect rational thinking.

FelineGood76 · 20/03/2024 10:19

Dadjoke, the article you linked goes into many reasons why people transition including repressed homosexuality, mental health, etc. This does not agree with your previous point that trans people only transition because they are trans. How it is a "wild reading" of the article? It clearly disagrees with what you said. Or are you just embarrassed that you linked an article that actually counters your own weak arguments?

BackToLurk · 20/03/2024 10:28

Geebray · 20/03/2024 07:55

Fred Sargeant was actually at the Stonewall riots, and disagrees with you.

Sylvia Rivera: the dark truth about a trans icon - spiked (spiked-online.com)

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It doesn't matter what FS says, they'll always be someone who wasn't there popping up to say he's wrong

SinnerBoy · 21/03/2024 09:08

Or to rough him up at Brighton Pride.

SoreAndTired1 · 23/03/2024 05:55

DadJoke · 19/03/2024 21:36

@HootyMcBooby the regret rate for gender confirmation is very, very low, and while you might have heard a lot from and about detransitioners, 99 stories about happy transgender people living their lives is not news.

This really does meet the gold standard for
peer-reviewed science: “As for this ROGD thing,” Bowers said, “I think there probably are people who are influenced. There is a little bit of ‘Yeah, that’s so cool. Yeah, I kind of want to do that too.’”"

This is the same Bowers who said:

These patients are not returning in droves” to detransition, … Patients with regret “are very rare,” she told Reuters. “Highest you’ll find is 1% or 1.5% of any kind of regret.”

Doctors and many transgender people say that focusing on isolated cases of detransitioning and regret endangers hard-won gains for broader recognition of transgender identity and a rapid increase in the availability of gender care that has helped thousands of minors. They argue that as youth gender care has become highly politicized in the United States and other countries, opponents of that care are able to weaponize rare cases of detransition in their efforts to limit or end it altogether, even though major medical groups deem it safe and potentially life-saving.
“Stories with people who have a lot of anger and regret” about transitioning are over-represented in the media, and they don’t reflect “what we are seeing in the clinics,” said Dr Jason Rafferty, a pediatrician and child psychiatrist…

https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/usa-transyouth-outcomes/

You realise that 'study' has been debunked over and over, right? It was based on a teeny tiny self-selecting sample. Evidence at some hospitals has the detransition at around 42%. And this is just one hospital, data on detransition is, surprisingly (or not, considering the agenda of these people who refuse to keep or collect data) hard to find.

SoreAndTired1 · 23/03/2024 06:37

DadJoke · 20/03/2024 06:15

Moving the goalposts! Maupin said they were there at the start - in his experience. I suggest you read about Marsha P Johnson, Silvia Rivera and Major Griffin Gracey.

There is no point in arguing with me about it - Maupin said it. If you are genuinely interested in the tangled history of the LGBT movement, you have a library card.

Show quote history

Marsha was a MALE DRAG QUEEN. He identified as male. Transvestites, are not transGENDER. Crossdressers, are not transGENDER. And, he wasn't even there that night. You are confusing two entirely different things. TransGENDER did not exist back then. The amount of transwashing history is absolutely unbelievable. They will have us believe transgender people were the first on the moon, and the first to invent and build the motor car.

Signalbox · 23/03/2024 08:24

DadJoke · 19/03/2024 21:36

@HootyMcBooby the regret rate for gender confirmation is very, very low, and while you might have heard a lot from and about detransitioners, 99 stories about happy transgender people living their lives is not news.

This really does meet the gold standard for
peer-reviewed science: “As for this ROGD thing,” Bowers said, “I think there probably are people who are influenced. There is a little bit of ‘Yeah, that’s so cool. Yeah, I kind of want to do that too.’”"

This is the same Bowers who said:

These patients are not returning in droves” to detransition, … Patients with regret “are very rare,” she told Reuters. “Highest you’ll find is 1% or 1.5% of any kind of regret.”

Doctors and many transgender people say that focusing on isolated cases of detransitioning and regret endangers hard-won gains for broader recognition of transgender identity and a rapid increase in the availability of gender care that has helped thousands of minors. They argue that as youth gender care has become highly politicized in the United States and other countries, opponents of that care are able to weaponize rare cases of detransition in their efforts to limit or end it altogether, even though major medical groups deem it safe and potentially life-saving.
“Stories with people who have a lot of anger and regret” about transitioning are over-represented in the media, and they don’t reflect “what we are seeing in the clinics,” said Dr Jason Rafferty, a pediatrician and child psychiatrist…

https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/usa-transyouth-outcomes/

I think the trouble is with this is firstly the stats are unreliable because the data hasn’t been collected. The Tavistock really had a golden opportunity to collect data to prove such an idea over the last 15 years and incredibly they failed to do so. You have to ask yourself why.

Secondly the consequences to those who do regret are potentially catastrophic. Take Richie Heron (another gay man) who has had his penis removed and claims now to suffer with incontinence and having to spend 20 minutes to take a pee. He also says he can’t take his natural hormone, testosterone, because it causes him significant discomfort in his stump so he is now stuck taking oestrogen for life to maintain a degree of health during his probably shortened life.

When it goes wrong it doesn’t just go a bit wrong. There is no way back for the likes of Richie who, let’s face it, went through a gay conversation therapy of sorts when he got caught up in the trans trend whilst also suffering from severe mental health issues.

Signalbox · 23/03/2024 08:47

Other gay men who have been vocal on this topic are Patrick Harvie MP and Marilyn.

I suspect the gay “community” are as divided on this as anyone else on this topic. I’ve spoken to two gay men on separate occasions over the last few years one of whom referred to the “alphabet mafia” and the other who said he was irritated by the forced narrative of victim hood attached to being lgbtq. Neither were impressed by the excessive demands of trans activists. I was actually quite surprised at how vocal and outspoken they both were on the topic. Most women I speak to are far more cagey and careful about how they talk about it.

CaterhamReconstituted · 23/03/2024 11:52

SoreAndTired1 · 23/03/2024 06:37

Marsha was a MALE DRAG QUEEN. He identified as male. Transvestites, are not transGENDER. Crossdressers, are not transGENDER. And, he wasn't even there that night. You are confusing two entirely different things. TransGENDER did not exist back then. The amount of transwashing history is absolutely unbelievable. They will have us believe transgender people were the first on the moon, and the first to invent and build the motor car.

Edited

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Nell Armstrong?

ScrollingLeaves · 23/03/2024 14:01

LunaNorth · 19/03/2024 08:00

James Dreyfus is one example of a GC gay man. He speaks sense on the issues.

Mr Menno is another.

Geebray · 23/03/2024 14:08

Signalbox · 23/03/2024 08:47

Other gay men who have been vocal on this topic are Patrick Harvie MP and Marilyn.

I suspect the gay “community” are as divided on this as anyone else on this topic. I’ve spoken to two gay men on separate occasions over the last few years one of whom referred to the “alphabet mafia” and the other who said he was irritated by the forced narrative of victim hood attached to being lgbtq. Neither were impressed by the excessive demands of trans activists. I was actually quite surprised at how vocal and outspoken they both were on the topic. Most women I speak to are far more cagey and careful about how they talk about it.

Patrick Harvie is rabidly TWAW.

Signalbox · 23/03/2024 14:28

Geebray · 23/03/2024 14:08

Patrick Harvie is rabidly TWAW.

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Yes sorry you're quite right. I've referenced completely the wrong MP!

I meant Neale Hanvey.

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 23/03/2024 15:02

AyrshireTryer · 19/03/2024 10:32

I'm a supporter of people being allowed to be people. Whether they are trans man to woman or woman to man. I think most of the issue seems to come down to bathrooms. I'm the kind of person that always uses a cubicle and think the urinal is a pretty outdated kind of thing. Let's have more single entry cubicle toilets.
When you are part of a minority is there not a sort of code/logic in trying to support other minorities, as you know how it is to be marginalised. Is that not just common courtesy? I've often been called woke and I kind of like that.

I’m assuming from your comment that you’re a man - in which case you don’t speak for all men. The urinal is not something I want to disappear; one of the advantages of being male is that the few cubicles in the gents are very often free, because peeing is the more common reason for needing public toilets. I sometimes have a very urgent need for a bowel movement (sorry about the excessive information) and am grateful that I rarely need to queue. Of course women often do have to queue, and I am all for there being more cubicles available for them to use, ones that are not clogged up with men.

I often notice the dismissive way something is labelled “outdated”. It’s uncomfortable for older people to realise that their beliefs and attitudes and the things they find helpful, once the height of modernity, are now “outdated” and therefore wrong.

TheCadoganArms · 23/03/2024 15:03

MartineBIT · 19/03/2024 07:37

IME gay men are as split on this issue as everyone else.

Same here.

All my gay mates are utterly fed up with the antics of alphabet soup mob.

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 25/03/2024 09:01

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 23/03/2024 15:02

I’m assuming from your comment that you’re a man - in which case you don’t speak for all men. The urinal is not something I want to disappear; one of the advantages of being male is that the few cubicles in the gents are very often free, because peeing is the more common reason for needing public toilets. I sometimes have a very urgent need for a bowel movement (sorry about the excessive information) and am grateful that I rarely need to queue. Of course women often do have to queue, and I am all for there being more cubicles available for them to use, ones that are not clogged up with men.

I often notice the dismissive way something is labelled “outdated”. It’s uncomfortable for older people to realise that their beliefs and attitudes and the things they find helpful, once the height of modernity, are now “outdated” and therefore wrong.

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I often notice the dismissive way something is labelled “outdated”. It’s uncomfortable for older people

How ageist of them. Just wait a week and maybe saying things are "outdated" will be a hate crime in Scotland.

Wonder how much fun we could all have with this new law and a bit of imagination.

Signalbox · 25/03/2024 11:08

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 25/03/2024 09:01

I often notice the dismissive way something is labelled “outdated”. It’s uncomfortable for older people

How ageist of them. Just wait a week and maybe saying things are "outdated" will be a hate crime in Scotland.

Wonder how much fun we could all have with this new law and a bit of imagination.

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Good point. Is age one of the PCs covered by the new law? Trans activists are notoriously hateful against middle-aged /older women

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 25/03/2024 12:25

Signalbox · 25/03/2024 11:08

Good point. Is age one of the PCs covered by the new law? Trans activists are notoriously hateful against middle-aged /older women

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Yep. Age is in there.
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/asp/2021/14/part/3/crossheading/offences-of-stirring-up-hatred/enacted
So is "transgender identity" along with disability, religion, sexual orientation, and variations in sex characteristics... but not sex (yet, if ever) Race is not in this particular section (stirring up hatred) but it's in the previous section of the same act.

redalex261 · 25/03/2024 12:28

Gay people I’ve spoken to are really polarised - age seems to be a factor too.