Gay men seems to be solid trans supporters

[mids2019]

Evan Davis, Graham Norton etc......

Gay men possibly seems to be quite supportive of trans issues and I wonder why this ?

Do men think it is a natural or allowable extension of homosexuality to trans or do they identify with trans people as they are both in a minority? Is there a little bit of misogyny in a lot of gay men which surfaced when we see and hear drag queens?

Has trans been successful at putting down GC views as they have successfully marketed themselves as the next step on in an inclusive and compassionate society from greater acceptance of honosexuality.

In terms of NAGMALT, massive props to Fred Sargant, Denis Noel Kavanagh and the ever delectable and illuminating Douglas Murray.

Yah boo sucks you loserrrr to Owen Jones (except for when he's looking for broody lesbians.)

I just feel that, while it's interesting to see how gay men respond to transmen (and presumably their male vaginas), from a women's rights pov, gay men are as relevant as straight men. That is, not at all.

I think this is why I find the Queen’s Speech podcast so refreshing - two (gay) men pointing out misogyny and taking it seriously.

Please don't claim gay people support giving sex changes to gay kids to turn them straight.

Christ, with friends like you, who needs enemies??!

Some unpleasant generalisations about gay men. "Gay men are misogynistic" (implying more so than heterosexual men) "I don't even have a problem with drag queens but drag queens performing in schools is creepy" that gay men want to be in women's changing rooms, etc. Plenty.

"Transing away the gay" is a nasty gender critical trope which can go in the bin alongside ROGD. I am sure you can nutpick a handful of counter-examples, but people transition because they are transgender.

Transgender people are almost universally supported by the (still small, still oppressed) LGBT community, despite the handful of gay and lesbian people who are gender critical. Take a look the reaction to the presence of a tiny handful of "sex realists" at Pride for an example.

Armistead Maupin also gives an insight into why gay men support transgender people "LGBT has got a T in there for a reason - trans people started our movement."

You’ve mentioned the scourge of transphobia in Britain – what can we do to push back against that?

Show our support by speaking out against anybody in our circles who are making noises like that. Challenge them, don’t be afraid to call an asshole an asshole. Support your trans friends. Do what you can. It all happens on a personal level, always – it happens to a certain degree on a cultural level, artistically. That’s what I tried to do when I invented Anna Madrigal, who was the first sympathetic trans character in literature.

https://instinctmagazine.com/author-armistead-maupin-speaks-out-on-transphobia-in-britain/

""Transing away the gay" is a nasty gender critical trope which can go in the bin alongside ROGD. I am sure you can nutpick a handful of counter-examples, but people transition because they are transgender."

Really?
How do you explain the countless videos of DE-transitioners who categorically state that they transitioned because of
a) peer pressure / social contagion
b) internalised homophobia
c) autism or another mental health issue
d) men who admit to being AGPs

Are these people not really trans? How can we tell?
Specifically, on the gay issue, there ARE stories of de-transitioners who now know that they are adult GAY males (see YouTuber Shapeshifter) who made a terrible mistake and have ruined their lives. They admit they tried to "trans the gay away".

Try again.

No, trans people did NOT start the LGB movement, that's alternative reality popping up again. The current trans movement is the most openly and nasty homophobic movement I have encountered in my lifetime.

Couple of interesting comments under that Armistead Maupin article, Dadjoke, cheers.

This is just not what I see empirically. Regardless of sexual orientation, in terms of numbers, more men are skeptical of gender ideology, and more women are not only accepting, are inclined to police others who disagree. Often quite viciously.

I can understand that it "seems" to come down to bathrooms because that's what it always gets dragged back around to on some online spaces, but ultimately it's about what is meant by "man" and "woman" - if it's what you're like then something has gone massively wrong and it affects all of us.

I can't walk around pretending I'm a woman because I have a "womanish" personality or soul or brain or whatever.

And trying to pretend that sexual orientation is based on other people having a womanish/mannish personality is wrong, too.

Ah, is the homophobe back to tell us that gay children are lying?

Off the top of my head: James Dreyfus, Andrew Doyle, Douglas Murray, Dave Rubin, Brad Polumbo and Mr Menno all oppose this stuff.

There are also trans people who oppose it, such as Marcus Dib, Blaire White and Buck Angel.

No group is a monolith, we're all individuals with opinions of our own.

As for the people claiming that "men support other men" or that men don't care because the trans stuff doesn't affect them as much, according to YouGov it is generally women who are more supportive of extensions of trans rights and trans people's ability to access women-only spaces.

https://yougov.co.uk/society/articles/43194-where-does-british-public-stand-transgender-rights-1

Search for the heading, "Across the board, women are more likely than men to support greater rights for transgender people" to see various statistics.

Excerpt:
"Much of the contention around trans rights has focused on transgender women and their access to women’s spaces. It is pertinent to note, therefore, that in all cases women are notably more relaxed about the prospect of a trans woman in a woman’s space than men are."

Oh yeah, and that's been going so well for poor James Dreyfus, hasn't it?

I see our resident male expert on feminism, women's cervixes, FGM & breastfeeding has now arrived to lecture women that ROGD in teenage girls doesn't exist. As well as pretending that all the children confused about their sex, (many of whom if left alone would turn out to be gay) do not constitute "transing away the gay" 🙄

It's really important to some people to hammer non-conforming kids over the head with the message that their bodies are wrong.

Even some doctors who treat trans kids, and some doctors who treat trans kids and WHO ARE ALSO TRANS THEMSELVES (see doctor who treated Jazz Jennings, Marci Bowers, are on record as stating that rapid onset gender dysphoria (ROGD) is a problem.

Top Trans Doctors Blow the Whistle on ‘Sloppy’ Care | The Free Press (thefp.com)

"When public health researcher and former Brown University Professor Lisa Littman dubbed this phenomenon “rapid onset gender dysphoria” in 2018, the university apologized for her paper and ultimately pushed her out. Activists called the hypothesis of a social contagion among teen girls a "poisonous lie used to discredit trans people".
But Littman’s research about the sudden spike in teen girl trans-identification has become increasingly difficult to deny: A recent survey by the American College Health Association showed that, in 2008, one in 2,000 female undergraduates identified as transgender. By 2021, that figure had jumped to one in 20.
While both Anderson and Bowers pointed out that “ROGD” has yet to be accepted as a diagnosis, Anderson said: “At our clinic at UCSF, for two years now running, we’re running two to one natal females to natal males.” Two to one.
“As for this ROGD thing,” Bowers said, “I think there probably are people who are influenced. There is a little bit of ‘Yeah, that’s so cool. Yeah, I kind of want to do that too.’”"

(From the linked article - interesting read)

DadJoke · Today 17:45

Armistead Maupin also gives an insight into why gay men support transgender people "LGBT has got a T in there for a reason - trans people started our movement."

In other news, the VI Egyptian Dynasty were the first to land a man on the moon.

I think we significantly underestimate the impact of HIV/AIDS and how it has shaped gay male demographics and politics, particularly in the US, which had a much worse epidemic than the UK.

In the US, about 1 in 10 gay male Baby Boomers died of AIDS. That is a huge loss of people who would now be among the leadership of the community and who on average would probably have been more GC-leaning than younger gay men. Gender identity theory might well have taken a very different course in the USA had that cohort and subsequent generations been unscarred by the experience of HIV/AIDS. I would hazard it played a huge role in hypersensitising gay political institutions to groups with claims of marginalisation.

a) No they fricking didn't

b) If they did, why did it take so long for the T to appear after the LGB?

@HootyMcBooby the regret rate for gender confirmation is very, very low, and while you might have heard a lot from and about detransitioners, 99 stories about happy transgender people living their lives is not news.

This really does meet the gold standard for
peer-reviewed science: “As for this ROGD thing,” Bowers said, “I think there probably are people who are influenced. There is a little bit of ‘Yeah, that’s so cool. Yeah, I kind of want to do that too.’”"

This is the same Bowers who said:

These patients are not returning in droves” to detransition, … Patients with regret “are very rare,” she told Reuters. “Highest you’ll find is 1% or 1.5% of any kind of regret.”

Doctors and many transgender people say that focusing on isolated cases of detransitioning and regret endangers hard-won gains for broader recognition of transgender identity and a rapid increase in the availability of gender care that has helped thousands of minors. They argue that as youth gender care has become highly politicized in the United States and other countries, opponents of that care are able to weaponize rare cases of detransition in their efforts to limit or end it altogether, even though major medical groups deem it safe and potentially life-saving.
“Stories with people who have a lot of anger and regret” about transitioning are over-represented in the media, and they don’t reflect “what we are seeing in the clinics,” said Dr Jason Rafferty, a pediatrician and child psychiatrist…

https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/usa-transyouth-outcomes/

I can only imagine you are unfamiliar with his life and work to say something like that. Do you think he is lying?

My b) was a simple question. Maybe you would care to answer it?

And I've read all of his Tales Of The City novels.

You really REALLY didn't read the article YOU linked did you?

"Some people do detransition, however, and some do so because of regret. The incidence of regret could be as low as clinicians like Bowers say, or it could be much higher. But as Reuters found, hard evidence on long-term outcomes for the rising numbers of people who received gender treatment as minors is very weak.
Dr Laura Edwards-Leeper, a clinical psychologist in Oregon who treats transgender youths and a co-author of WPATH’s new Standards of Care for adolescents and children, said MacKinnon’s work represents some of the most extensive research to date on the reasons for detransitioning and the obstacles patients face. She said the vitriol he has encountered illustrates one reason so few clinicians and researchers are willing to broach the subject.
“People are terrified to do this research,” she said.
For this article, Reuters spoke to 17 people who began medical transition as minors and said they now regretted some or all of their transition. Many said they realized only after transitioning that they were homosexual, or they always knew they were lesbian or gay but felt, as adolescents, that it was safer or more desirable to transition to a gender that made them heterosexual. Others said sexual abuse or assault made them want to leave the gender associated with that trauma. Many also said they had autism or mental health issues such as bipolar disorder that complicated their search for identity as teenagers."

Which counters your "trans people only transition because they are trans" and the fact that statistics are very likely to be higher than 1%.

"Researchers acknowledge that studies that follow patients for only a short time may underestimate detransition and regret because evidence indicates some people may not reach that point until as long as a decade after treatment began. Some studies also lose track of patients – a recurring challenge as minors age out of pediatric clinics and have to seek care elsewhere".

Try harder.
3/10

Why is a transactivist trying to insist that children, all gaslit into believing their growing bodies are flawed and that a sex change will fix them, don't go on to regret their future sterility, lack of sexual feelings, ill health and wrecked bodies? Evidently not understood the principle of informed consent.