Gay men seems to be solid trans supporters

[mids2019]

Evan Davis, Graham Norton etc......

Gay men possibly seems to be quite supportive of trans issues and I wonder why this ?

Do men think it is a natural or allowable extension of homosexuality to trans or do they identify with trans people as they are both in a minority? Is there a little bit of misogyny in a lot of gay men which surfaced when we see and hear drag queens?

Has trans been successful at putting down GC views as they have successfully marketed themselves as the next step on in an inclusive and compassionate society from greater acceptance of honosexuality.

My (millennial, single, gorgeous) gay cousin was ranting about how stonewall had lost their way when I saw him a couple of weeks ago.

Dennis Noel Kavanagh and Clive Simpson do a podcast (Queen's Speech on substack) about gender ideologly and the damage it causes. They have guests who are also gay men and against the ideology. Dennis also is part of 'Gay Mens Network.'

MrMenno has his YouTube channel.

The damage to children is the one thing that once you truly see it and understand the implications, the scales then fall from your eyes.

The day a high profile, established gay man turns up with a transman as a partner, then i will believe it.

There's the lovely Mr Menno https://www.youtube.com/user/mennofest/videos (if you haven't found him before his GC satirical songs are a delight)

Clive Simpson and Denis Kavanagh who do the "Queens' Speech" podcast on Substack and elsewhere - especially good analysis of gender related activity in parliament and UK law.

Simon Fanshawe, new rector of Edinburgh University,

And the men of LGBA Alliance. They're not all women (though the women are the big stars )

Some of the desisters / detransitioners.

The mainstream media may be full of GI apologists but there are plenty of GC gay men!

Cross post with @RainWithSunnySpells 😀

The damage to children is the one thing that once you truly see it and understand the implications, the scales then fall from your eyes.

Yes, that's what finally peaked my gay friends. They were all very be kind to start with. That came from a good place, based on their empathy for young people feeling confused in their bodies at puberty. They knew what that felt like.
But the realisation that kids were being told they were 'in the wrong body' instead of 'just' gay, plus all the drugs, the dodgy pathways, the homophobic idealogy and the lasting physical damage pushed them over the edge.

Well, that and the intrusion of transmen into the local gay pick-up joint.

Famoys gay men support the movement. Why? They are afraid of being cancelled. Money is the motivator.

Regular gay men? I know at least half a dozen…completely on side with gender critical thoughts/thinking.

So apart from Douglas Murray, Andrew Doyle, James Dreyfus, Dennis Kavanagh, Fred Sargent, Clive Simpson, Mr Menno, Simon Fanshawe and all the men of the LGB Alliance, what have gay men ever done for us?

I think it was Julie Burchill who said “scratch a gay man and you’ll find a misogynist”. Drag culture, ‘fag hags’ and support out TW all point to this. Obviously it’s not all gay men but there’s a rich seam of misogyny. Older gay men used to be routinely vile and envious of women. I’ve heard “toxic fish” and other pleasantries bandied about many times.

And yet Jonny Best was so present and supportive on this very board. Was a founder member of the LGBAlliance, was subjected to a lengthy investigation by his employer / Uni.

OK, he’s not on telly every week but he was high profile within the arts and subjected to much abuse.

I don't really agree with the premise, unless people like Douglas Murray, or various other gay male commentators who are more on the right, or more conservative, don't count.

And frankly there are also lots of lesbians who reflexively support anything that is supposed to belong to the rainbow people group.

So I don't really see it as a man thing or a gay thing. It's not at all inevitable, and I am not sure it's a very strong trend.

I suppose what I might agree with is there are a lot of people in the gay and lesbian community who have over the years been thoroughly indoctrinated with a bunch of half baked slogans, and really believed them, and that has tended to make them a little more likely than the general population to be tribal on issues they see as related to LGB, and also slow to spot the way in which many of those slogans embody toxic or senseless ideas.

The second part of that is that they have been trained to see themselves as an identity group rather than people who have one thing in common which they may not even have the same opinion about how it should be treated socially. (Same sex marriage for example.) Hence the tribal response.

It's no surprise, in light of that, that some of the gay male critics are people who don't especially identify with "gayness" (for want of another word) as a movement or identity.

True - but the fact that you can name them all individually kind of says it all, doesn't it? (Simon and Dennis are both prominent in LGBA so I think you're double counting there.)

We live in a society where men, as a class, have power over women as a class. Gay men align themselves with the interests of their class just as straight men do.

I only personally know one gay man who thinks TWAW and no doubt that I am an awful bigot for thinking otherwise.

However he was settled and married to his husband long before all the TWAW stuff entered the conversation and became so prevalent. So he is unaware of the fact that it he decided to split up with his husband and start dating he would find that he was expected to include transmen in his dating pool.

They also have no children so could be unaware of exactly what children in school are being taught on the matter.

He is not representative of the gay men I know though, he is the outlier.

This is not my experience at all. My first exposure to GC thinking, about 8yrs ago when I still thought it was super rare and we should be kind, was with a group of gay men. They all kind of groaned when the trans pride float went past, and then gave me example after example of how the trans movement had ruined the fun -changing gay bars and clubs to safe spaces where people just whined on instead of dancing, example of lesbian groups disbanded because the men all came in (they openly laughed at these men, no hint of thinking lesbians should be interested in them).

It was a different kind of eye roll, they aren't at risk by the movement or losing out in the same way but they are miles from welcoming the teenage girls in binders into their gay male spaces.

Maybe it is more to do with how much someone 'identifies with' the 'LGBTQ + community'? Gay men and lesbians who hold their sexual orientation as a major part of their identity may be more likely to be suscpetible to trans ideology?

People who identify with certain communities may well tend to be more social in their thinking - and so align more with the trends that are dominant in their group. People who are loners or individualists, less so.

I wonder if the division lies along the same lines as the typology, HSTS, and AGP.

It would be fairly understandable that gay men sympathised with homosexual transsexuals. They would all be part of the same scene.

But the arrival of straight men enacting a fetish but claiming the exact same 'identity' is probably giving them pause for thought.

Effeminate gay men femming it up would be viewed completely differently to straight men demanding access to everything to do with women in order to be validated. Or cheat. Or to go to the wrong prison.

Plus there's the issue of giving HSTS a bad name.

That's not to say they aren't other reasons, and there are plenty of HSTS adopting the ideology at women's expense. They are men, after all.

And yes, the bitter irony of them suddenly getting it when it happens to them with women hassling them for sex, isn't a surprise.

So, I think that the conclusion is that, gay or straight, male or female, the various groups are not homogeneous, monolithic entities with the same way of thinking. Some support TWAW and some don't.

When I was younger I loved having gay friends, they were fun and sparky and there was lots of bitchy banter. With hindsight most of them basically hated women and most of the banter was directed at me.
Gay men are not the allies we think they are (mostly).
I do have 1 Gay friend who actually does not appreciate the T in LGBTwhatever, he says they have appropriated the term, now dominate Pride and a lot of their kinks and behaviours have set back the cause of Gay men by years and eroded the hard won rights they fought for.

I think some gay men are very concerned about it and see it as "transing" the gay away and to a lesser extent are not happy with females identifying as men on their dating apps and in their scene.

I think a lot of them are also horrified at the potentially permanent damage young people are having done to them and their bodies before they even have a chance to figure out who they really are.

I have encountered gay men who seem to really dislike women but that certainly not the case for them all or even most of them.

Spot on. I would estimate a waaay higher proportion of females in and recently just out of Uni are fully on board with it all.

I suppose what I might agree with is there are a lot of people in the gay and lesbian community who have over the years been thoroughly indoctrinated with a bunch of half baked slogans, and really believed them, and that has tended to make them a little more likely than the general population to be tribal on issues they see as related to LGB, and also slow to spot the way in which many of those slogans embody toxic or senseless ideas.

The second part of that is that they have been trained to see themselves as an identity group rather than people who have one thing in common which they may not even have the same opinion about how it should be treated socially. (Same sex marriage for example.) Hence the tribal response.

Agree with this. However, I would imagine male LGB people are at least a little more likely to be trans-supportive than their female counterparts, because the sexual balance of power is more in their favour. It's generally easier for a gay man to turn down a trans man (who has been socialised female and more likely to take no for an answer) than for a lesbian to turn down a trans woman (who is probably bigger and stronger than them).

And whilst both gay men and lesbians have faced the homophobic rhetoric of "I can turn you straight", lesbians will have more direct experience of heterosexual male entitlement and I'd imagine more practice at recognising it.

Most of my gay male friends are now completely gender critical.

But just like some straight men are horrible misogynists, some gay men are too. The whole drag culture of calling women 'fish' is hardly a celebration of us.

I know a few gay men who wang on about pronouns. Partly they enjoy virtue signalling, partly they like the element of power and control. If it ever comes up in conversation, I always ask, "So how many transmen have you hooked up with lately?" I think it's important to make them think about how the debate directly affects them. What they do with their dicks is the proof of whether or not they genuinely believe that gender is more important than sex.

There are some hypocritical gay men who are happy to put women's safety at risk, and expect us to allow transwomen in places like changing rooms where we might be exposed to their male genitals. But these gay men don't want to sully themselves with going anywhere near female genitals.

On GrindR the vast majority of gay men just want other men, or transwomen. Nobody calls them out for not liking 'fish'. Gay men have it so much easier than lesbians.

OP do you like being lumped in with all over people in your demographic? Unsure on your sex, sensuality and race etc but if you were a straight woman, would you want to be talked about as a whole? Straight women think this, straight women believe that...

It's no surprise, in light of that, that some of the gay male critics are people who don't especially identify with "gayness" (for want of another word) as a movement or identity.

Yes I remember a section on TV where Douglas Murray was debating with another gay man and at one point he exclaimed “I’m not part of the gay community!” I think there was another where they hadn’t realised he was gay. Possibly because of his GC views or being conservative, there’s a whole group who genuinely don’t understand LGBT people voting conservative.