Gay men seems to be solid trans supporters

[mids2019]

Evan Davis, Graham Norton etc......

Gay men possibly seems to be quite supportive of trans issues and I wonder why this ?

Do men think it is a natural or allowable extension of homosexuality to trans or do they identify with trans people as they are both in a minority? Is there a little bit of misogyny in a lot of gay men which surfaced when we see and hear drag queens?

Has trans been successful at putting down GC views as they have successfully marketed themselves as the next step on in an inclusive and compassionate society from greater acceptance of honosexuality.

IME, LGB people have been really heavily pushed into ‘allyship’. The straight people I know who even knew anything about the ‘trans’ phenomenon, tended to be do-gooder women, thrilled to have a new ‘most vulnerable’ group - ‘trans kids’, to pour their frustrated sympathies into, but the ones who stuck up for adult male ‘trans’-identified people, tended to be gay men who were familiar with gay transvestites in their circles, and with Attitude, Pink News and so on being really pro, they to not think too hard about.

Of the gay men I know, they’re generally very non-judgemental about unusual sex lives and practices, counting prostitutes - gay, straight, male female among their friends, there’s a blurred line between cyber-sex and porn, there’s a lot of humour about bizarre, kinky fetishes. They see themselves as allies with anyone ostracised and shamed by the forbidding religious ‘right’ and presume that anyone who disapproves of kink, etc, is probably a hypocrite. There’s not much understanding of female sexuality, (the instinct to avoid getting pregnant by certain men and avoid acts and behaviours that lead to vaginal infections, etc), they just think women are sexually repressed by the same religious forces that suppressed homosexuality, and women who object to men in our spaces are just right-wing, religious and sexually repressed or repressive. Like uptight mothers shaming their sons for exploring their gayness.

In my experience men can see women as ‘men without dicks’ rather than whole and complete entities, with different drives, experiences and needs from them, more so with gay men, and gay men I’ve found, can presume that women count them as one of us, as though the thing that defines heterosexual women is fancying men and not women, so we must feel absolutely fine with gay men in our changing rooms, toilets, commenting on our appearance, asking intimate and personal questions, etc, as we do with other members of our own sex. (I have to assert personal boundaries much more firmly with gay men than straight men). And because of this sense that women are essentially just dickless gay men, it would follow that there can be no good reason for women to have firm boundaries around our sex which excludes the trans identified among them.

True - but the fact that you can name them all individually kind of says it all, doesn't it? (Simon and Dennis are both prominent in LGBA so I think you're double counting there.)
I was simply listing all the gay men who had already been named on this thread, but I'm sure there are a lot more.

And I see I'm Jonny Best has been named since I posted.

Gay men and even more so lesbian women are more supportive of trans rights than any other demographic, not just publicly. There is a reason that LGB Alliance is so small compared with LGBT groups.

There is a nasty strain of homophobia here.

I have a bit of a thing about people using the word "community" when they just mean "people". There are usual multiple communities - local communities, online communities, often with very different views. And quite often one of these "X communities" positions itself as the representative for all the "X people" and what their X community wants is what all X people want or should want.

Quite a few of the doctors who resigned from the Tavistock Clinic were gay men if I recall correctly. They voiced concerns about homophobic parents 'transing the gay away' and their concerns were dismissed because they were told they were taking it too personally.

@DadJoke the only reason LGB Alliance is currently smaller than some other groups is because it is still so new. And for most of the time since they started up, they had to waste most of their energy fighting a ridiculous court case against Mermaids, which hasn't exactly ended well for Mermaids.

Th fact is that it's lesbians who were the first group to really spot the dangers in trans ideology. Magdalen Berns was on of the first people to speak out.

I'm a supporter of people being allowed to be people. Whether they are trans man to woman or woman to man. I think most of the issue seems to come down to bathrooms. I'm the kind of person that always uses a cubicle and think the urinal is a pretty outdated kind of thing. Let's have more single entry cubicle toilets.
When you are part of a minority is there not a sort of code/logic in trying to support other minorities, as you know how it is to be marginalised. Is that not just common courtesy? I've often been called woke and I kind of like that.

With bathrooms, I also think they should all be single enclosed lockable rooms with toilet, sink, dryer. I assume that's what you meant anyway.
But it also 'comes down to' things like men who say they're women (MWSTW) taking part in women's sports, MWSTW being housed in women's prisons, their crimes being recorded as having been committed by women...
Maybe you don't engage much with the news or this issue, or maybe you're being a bit disingenuous?

It’s not all gay men, but I think it’s a lot. I think it’s because many of them went through, or are conscious of, the battles for their rights in the 70s and 80s and so there’s an instinctive solidarity there. But of course it’s not a proper comparison: gay rights do not infringe on the rights of any other groups, the demand of trans activists do. It’s also because they are men, not women. Their rights aren’t being threatened.

I don’t think there is a significant strain of misogyny among gay men though. I don’t even have a problem with drag queens, who are honest about it being a performance and aren’t actually claiming womanhood (although the industry of drag queens performing in schools is creepy and wrong I think).

DadJoke is like a walking contradiction.

Trans are marginalised so must be supported in every way.........but women from marginalised groups are not entitled to single sex provision.

Throwing homophobia accusations around on this board........but transing away the gay is acceptable.

We must all be tarred with the same brush as everyone who knows humans can't change sex........but that rule doesn't apply in the opposite direction considering the many dodgy people who are part of the gender ideology "community".

And so on.

There is a nasty strain of homophobia here.

Would you like to point it out to us? Or did you just want to make a general but unsupported complaint against women saying things you don't like?

I think it’s because many of them went through, or are conscious of, the battles for their rights in the 70s and 80s and so there’s an instinctive solidarity there.

I've said for a long time that one of the main reasons that gender ideology has got the foothold that it has is because people are aware of past injustices, and when a new "injustice" came along, people fell over themselves to behave differently. (Obviously the problem with gender ideology is that rights are a zero-sum game because the granting of rights negatively affects women, rather than in the case of women's/gay/race rights where the expansion of rights wasn't to the detriment of anyone else).

I should imagine that for gay people who've experienced discrimination, particularly as it was in the past, there is a sense of solidarity and empathy with another group who are seen as "oppressed".

When you are part of a minority is there not a sort of code/logic in trying to support other minorities, as you know how it is to be marginalised.

Yes, until they start marginalising you as well. Women aren't a minority by the way, but we still get marginalised. I'm not sure when we stopped saying "women and minorities".

Is that not just common courtesy?

Sometimes. But sometimes they're not being courteous to you and you'd be a fool not to stand up for yourself.

I've often been called woke and I kind of like that.

I used to feel the same way, though we called it "Ideologically Sound" or "Politically Correct". There was a bit of irony to it. Plus in the old days it was better than being the opposite. Nowadays I'm not so sure.

Perhaps some do, but definitely not all. I follow the author Simon Edge on Twitter, and he's the opposite of the trans-supporters.

Plenty of gay men who loathe the gender woo because they see it as regressive. They also don’t want to have sex with female-bodied people (transmen), and greatly dislike what is being done to their lesbian sisters.

The relationship between gay men and lesbians always interests me. They don’t seem to get on, even though they were part of the same fight. Gay men prefer the company of heterosexual women.

The trans movement is more threatening to lesbians because (a) lesbian are women and (b) they suddenly face this new pressure of people with penises who say they are lesbians calling them transphobes if they don’t want to sleep with them.

I am surprised that gay men do not pipe up more about the dangers of the trans movement though. Not only does it affect their lesbian sisters but because young gay men who may present as effeminate are now being taught that, actually, they might be women - isn’t this “transing” the gay away?

Homophobia?

You mean like the kind that compels parents to turn their gay son into a "daughter" because they hate the idea that they could have produced a gay son?
THAT kind of homophobia?

Or the internalised kind that compels a lesbian girl to cut off her breasts and take testosterone because she cannot stand the thought that she is gay?

THAT kind?

In a movement that is disgustingly homophobic (lesbians have to accept dick if the owner says they are a "girl", gay men have to accept vaginas if the owner is a "guy", people are "born in the wrong body", you cannot be exclusively attracted to a male or female sexed body or you are "transphobic" etc), you have a fucking cheek talking about "homophobia".

This movement is RIFE with it.

Yes the relationship can be fraught and some gay men can be very misogynistic about lesbians (and all women, esp. ‘butch’ ones as they don’t do conventional femininity). It’s appalling to hear women openly being referred to as ‘fish’ and ‘gashes’ by these men. A particular type of gay man (the ‘fag-hag’s gay bff’) was popularised in pop culture by Sex and the City and the like. But there are gay men who are not like this, and are in fact very thoughtful about a range of things. And yes, they see the ‘transing the gay away’ happening, but are silenced by the same pressures that silence/coerce other GCs…

There are many very road brush strokes here.

DadJoke · Today 10:15

There is a reason that LGB Alliance is so small compared with LGBT groups.

As pointed out by heathspeedwell that's because they're a new group and it takes time to attract members.

There is a nasty strain of homophobia here.

Yes, we see it in your posts, at least you have acknowledged it.

True - but the fact that you can name them all individually kind of says it all, doesn't it?

I'm not sure ... how many gay men could you specifically name as being as overtly supportive of the transactivist position?

Maybe it's because there seems to be a lot less vocal pressure for gay men to be willing to date transmen than for lesbians to be willing to date transwomen. Presumablly because many men who identify as women are heterosexual men, whereas maybe more transmen are lesbians.

Gay men prefer the company of heterosexual women.

Gay men are often the focus of straight women. Heterosexual women quite often use gay men as 'safe' male friends. It is OK to be flirty fun and cuddly with gay male friends without sexual misunderstanding or risk. Fine line: I have seen straight women flock to gay-orientated clubs as a place to dance without men being a nuisance. Is that taking over their spaces? My gay friends often used to invite me along to clubs (not the fetish or 'themed' ones).

I have seen a misogynistic core amongst some gay culture, I also know many gay men who have close much loved women friends and are aware and supportive of women in the face of the patriarchy.

We need to challenge misogyny where we find it, not generalise and fall for other discriminations.

"DadJoke is like a walking contradiction."

See also 'transpeople are both massively oppressed, disadvantaged and discriminated against and also only really face problems from about 5 people on mumsnet who absolutely don't reflect the views of anyone else.'

(TBH I assumed DadJoke is one of Sacha Baron Cohen's less successful creations)

Despite the blanket PR promoting the joys of having a 'gay best friend' and the stunning n brave RuPaul Drag Race series, many gay men are not particularly fans of women. A minority find us outright disgusting.

So why should they care?

No man has ever truly helped women in our centuries-long struggle for our rights. And why would they? It's zero-sum from their perspective.

We'd be awaiting a cold day in hell if we waited for the approval, co-sign or vocal support from all gay men.

NAGMALT obviously. There've been some very vocal and highly honourable exceptions.