Feeling depressed after conversations with my young adult daughters regarding female value.

[BigButtons]

I was out for a drink with my 22 daughter a couple of nights ago. She showed me a list of her ‘bodies’ the men she had slept with. It turns out of the 9, 2 were indeed rapes. She shrugged it off and was more concerned about her tally. She says that young women now are deemed to have lower value if they sleep with a lot of people. That the men she meets often ask her how many ‘bodies’ she has had.
she believes that feminism driven by millennials has caused a huge back lash amongst men, given raise to people like Andrew Tate and devalued women.
I was so horrified.
The next day I asked my 20 year old daughter if she concurred with this and she did.
So we are going backwards. Young women are deemed higher value the purer they are.
I feel so bloody sad and angry.
I hoped for better for my daughters.

If they know the history, they wouldn't have said "now".

Not sure how that is relevant to what I wrote.

And even more reason to not play along with the hypocrisy of devaluing women for sleeping with people while praising men for it.

It's normal to keep a written record of all the people you've had sex with, including rapes. It's normal to have had sex with 9 people by the age of 22. What's not great is the slut shaming on this post and the support for Jordan Peterson.

Also, to the PP who said men have nothing to gain from feminism, I couldn't disagree more. Who wouldn't want to have healthy, equal relationships with daughters, mothers, sisters, lovers who are all allowed to thrive in society? There have always been misogynists, and there always will be apparently, but people need to stop blaming feminism for the backlash against women insisting on equitable treatment.

If that's your normal — including the rapes — I feel sadness for you.

If this comment is directed at me, I appreciate that you are trying to throw in some sympathy for the possibility that I have been raped, but you can keep your "sadness" for the idea that I might find it normal to sleep with 9 people by the age of 22 or the idea that I think it's normal that a person should keep a record of who they had sex with that's really cloaking slut shaming.

I have had only one sexual partner for the last 25 years but I came of age when people were very concerned with STD testing and tracking sexual partners so it was very normal to keep a record.

Thanks.

Part of this mish mash of disparate accusations all thrown together is targeted at my post, so I will respond.

Men don't have much to gain from feminism. If they did, you can bet your ass they would be all over it. They'd probably have invented it, in fact. Or never needed to, as they would have been happy throughout history with equal relationships so never have treated women as second class citizens (or not even citizens at all) from the start.

But that is not what human history has been has it? And why not, if equality was such a win for men?

Fact is humans are status seeking animals and feeling superior to half of humanity is quite the boost. I remember reading a piece written by a chinese man in the time when women's feet were bound. He spoke about how he was not much in the world of men, but at home with his wife who relied on him to carry her to the window, he was a lion. And there we have it. As is having someone to do all the boring drudge work, like cleaning and digging up roots (rather than the fun stuff like fishing and hunting in hunter gatherer societies), and raising children. Its nice to have someone who has to defer to you and you make the decisions for and you can take their money, and they make your dinner when you get home, and you get to go to the pub when your working day finishes, but they keep on working making your dinner and looking after the shit stuff. Its quite nice having people you can punch when you are angry and you can have sex with when you like. Men have liked all this and gained from it. If they didn't, they wouldn't have kept things like this for so long. Women's gains have been hard won. Men did not say , ' Oh yeah, good point, here you go.'

I was briefly the sole earner in my family, when we had young kids. And you know what, it felt great. It felt absolutely great to go out into the world and earn the money and come home to someone else having done the drudge stuff and who made dinner. And I thought, no wonder men have held onto this for so long. This feels great!

You can rail as long as you like about how much men should see equal relationships as the big win, but the fact is they haven't and most still don't. They know full well what they would lose practically and psychologically from equality and they don't like it.

And yes, I do like what I have seen from Jordan Peterson. What I have read and heard from him directly (rather than just reading critics of him) I have liked. He is literally the only man I have ever seen crying after hearing a woman give an account of her abuse at the hands of men. Having read some of his stuff, stuff specific criticisms of him have been made over, I found that he didn't actually say what the critics said, or actually, his point was reasonable. He is a man who cares about other people and wants to help them help themselves. I don't see anything wrong with that. I am suspicious of those who create hate figures of those who have made it a mission in their life to tackle human suffering. It rather reminds me of those who try to knock down JKR actually. Most of them probably haven't bothered reading what their 'hate figure' said either.

Just two points:

I was arguing against men having nothing to gain from feminism. Despite what many men (and you!) believe, get off on, or whatever, there is much to gain.

I have read and listened to Jordan Peterson for years. I'm not forming an opinion based on what critics say.

Okey-dokey. 🙄

Yeah right, I ‘get off on’ the fact that men as a population don’t regard me or other women as equals 🙄

You keep on telling yourself whatever you need to believe.

It's human nature.

Princeton and Stanford University psychologists performed a study showing a group of men two sets of pictures, some of fully-clothed women and others of women who had been sexualized and were barely clothed. The psychologists monitored their medial prefrontal cortex (mPFC), which is the part of the brain involved in recognizing human faces and distinguishing one person from another. For the most part, the mPFC part of the brain was activated with each picture. However, when the subjects of the study were shown the pictures of sexualized women, this part of the brain was not activated. Basically, the automatic reaction in their brains suggested that they didn’t perceive the sexualized women as fully human, rather they saw them as objects, focusing on their bodies and body parts. The researchers concluded, “sexualized women were perceived as having the least control over their own lives” and “this suggests that sexualized women are more closely associated with being the objects, not the agents, of action as compared to clothed women.”

Women who are objectified are viewed as less than fully human, perceived to have less of a mind for thoughts or decisions and viewed as less deserving of moral treatment by others [8]. This denial of mental capacity and moral status has been found to have negative repercussions for objectified women, including increasing men’s willingness to commit sexually aggressive actions towards them [9], and decreasing perceived suffering in cases of sexual assault [10–12]. Furthermore, some women are objectified more than others: Women who appear sexualized (e.g., more tightly-fitted, revealing or provocative clothing, too much cosmetics ), in particular, are objectified more than non-sexualized women [3, 13–15]

Did you advise her to go to the police about the rapes? Perhaps even considering this might drive it home to your daughter that this is a serious crime, not an ordinary occurrence. Plus the fuckers who did that to her deserve an interview in the police station at the very least. Might make them think twice next time.