Feeling depressed after conversations with my young adult daughters regarding female value.

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I was out for a drink with my 22 daughter a couple of nights ago. She showed me a list of her ‘bodies’ the men she had slept with. It turns out of the 9, 2 were indeed rapes. She shrugged it off and was more concerned about her tally. She says that young women now are deemed to have lower value if they sleep with a lot of people. That the men she meets often ask her how many ‘bodies’ she has had.
she believes that feminism driven by millennials has caused a huge back lash amongst men, given raise to people like Andrew Tate and devalued women.
I was so horrified.
The next day I asked my 20 year old daughter if she concurred with this and she did.
So we are going backwards. Young women are deemed higher value the purer they are.
I feel so bloody sad and angry.
I hoped for better for my daughters.

I would actually find it disturbing that a 22 year old child of mine had slept with 9 people. I would also be extremely uneasy at them using the term "bodies" for human beings. In fact the OP's daughter seems so comfortable with the term that she shares it with her mother without a second thought.

Otherwise, women with fewer sexual partners (and especially virgins) have always been considered purer or more desirable, probably since the dawn of time. The Virgin Mary has been venerated for centuries and she replaced much older goddesses. I'm not saying it's right but I'm not sure why the OP finds the whole concept strange.

Why are you assuming i am inexperienced? Who are you to know i haven't had sex with 1/20//30/50/100 men? I certainly hadn't however had 9 by the age of 22. I am not the only person to think this is quite a high amount for her age, other posters have commented on it before me, so have a go at them too. Op's daughter can continue having sex with whoever wants it with her, that's fine. She can have sex with hundreds of men if she can find them. Her "pureness" as you put is meaningless as that's long gone and you are twisting what I said anyway. I said if she stops seeing men as commodities she might find one that doesn't see her as a commodity. Mind you, from Op's comments the girl is happy to sleep around and isn't looking for a committed relationship
She sadly needs to learn to report rape and will hopefully avoid being raped again. One more thing:: You seem to think it is wrong to be "inexperienced" as you put it. People could argue it is wrong to screw around. If you term inexperience as not listing sexual "partners" as bodies, rating partners prowess and think 9 partners by the age of 22 is great that says more about you. Also someone you think is inexperienced might just not have said yes to every potential screw that came along. Almost any woman can get sex easily if they want to, it's just that some are much choosier than others. Some prefer commitment and a relationship over a succession of meaningless, cheap sex. Having 1 partner isn't s bad thing.

WTF well it’s no surprise going men are judging your daughter when we have female posters on the feminist board busy doing the same as they lump in two rapes with consensual sex. Shameful behaviour there and not from your daughter.

As for the idea that ‘she needs to learn to report rape’ is equally offensive. Reporting is complex and leaves some women at risk of further trauma. As for ‘hopefully’ avoiding being takes well yeah we all hope that but it isn’t a risk factor that we can control while living in a society with men in it.

It is depressing OP and I am glad your daughter has you to talk to.

@ginasevern i have said repeatedly that it is a very common term- used by men also. She didn’t make it up. That is what she hears around her.
i would have hoped that the idea that women who didn’t ’sleep around’ would become archaic. I would have hoped that we would be moving away from that. It seems that it is worse now than it was for my generation.
I had had 9 different men by 22. I was young and enjoying myself. I liked sex. The men liked sex. I don’t see it as an issue at all.

@ginasevernI would actually find it disturbing that a 22 year old child of mine had slept with 9 people. I would also be extremely uneasy at them using the term "bodies" for human beings.

Those are the two big things that would concern you?! I would be a lot more concerned that “a child of mine” had been raped twice.

Thank you . I am saddened by some of the attitudes on here too

I say this with horror and sympathy for the DD in this story and what she has been through with men at the forefront of my mind. Whatever will she think if she reads this thread?

But to my mind the whole concept of a 22 year old sitting down in a bar and sharing a written list of the men she had slept with and accompanying notes and score ratings on a phone with her mother is off the scale unusual. Ok, a frank conversation, guidance sought, loving support needed, yep I absolutely get that, but a written list, details of the sex, scores and the casual slipping in that two of the 'bodies' were rapists, on a phone, in a bar. Really?

Also, if my DD had told me that she'd been raped twice I would be tearing my heart out with rage and the need to protect and help. That would be the main focus, not this academic examination of the feminist position posting on MN.

The rapes seem an aside in the original post. Unbelievable a mother would see it that way.

Then to come in with a line about millennial feminists being responsible for the the likes of Andrew Tate and all related misogyny.....well talk about victim blaming and passing the problem of arsehole men onto women.

What is this?

You’ll be clutching your pearls and having a heart attack if you knew how many people I’d slept with by that age then 😂😂

Why are people almost keen to gloat laugh and laugh about how they've slept around. They don't want judgement but others who don't prescribe to that are derided as pearl clurchers. Female posters who don't sfree with Op anf ger followed are leapt upon.

It's also deeply concerned that a young woman rated 2 rapists in her bodies list and is still attracted to one.

If 2 of the 9 were rapes then 7 consensual partners is only one a year if starting at 16. But what’s important is that young women can have sex with as many or as few people as they want and not come away feeling disappointed, abused, disrespected or judged.

I am an older millennial. There’s always been a decent size portion of men who value women based on how many people they have slept with.

I would be more disappointed that my daughters were blaming women for men’s poor behaviour. I have a daughter who is 20. She knows that’s men’s behaviour is a male problem. It’s not (and never has been) caused by women.

I think this is going to depend on the influences she has on her life outside of her family.

my daughter of a similar age hates the phrase ‘how many bodies?’ Is disgusting and degrading.

Nor should anyone because they have had sex with none, one or few men cone away from a conversation with other women feeling disappointed, abused, disrespected or judged.
On here it seems that sleeping around is valued = good. for her, slap on the back, non promiscuous women /girls =wromg, insulted, derided

@Itsonlymashadow she is not really blaming them for men’s behaviour just the culture it has created.

So the culture is women's fault?

He and his ilk have stealthily groomed a generation. If anyone has a male aged 13- 26 in their lives they need to talk to them about Tate.

the culture that feminism created?

So feminists under 42 caused it? They are then to blame.

Women didn’t create this culture. There has never been a time that some men don’t judge women’s worth on how many people they have sex with. So how is it millennial feminism that caused it?

Men caused it. Women asked to be treated as equals. And a good section of men have responded with to that by becoming women haters. That’s not the fault of the person asking for equality. Men created the patriarchy. Men created sexism and some men can’t handle the strides women are making forward. Which are very small in comparison to the size of the problem.

But those men have been in every generation. It’s not new. It wasn’t created by feminism or millennial feminism.

It’s really weird you can’t see that your daughters are, in fact, blaming women for men’s behaviour and I would be worried about who they are mixing with and what content they are consuming.

You sound like yo approve of both of them.

Terrifying

The body count concept was discussed in this podcast as part of a wider discussion about the return to trad values/trad wife pushback against the sexual revolution and feminist gains. It’s a thing, but fairly recent with that terminology. The double standard has been around for a long time.
https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/a-special-place-in-hell/id1631208362?i=1000649352183

Except when women recognise their worth and value and when they ask men to recognise their worth and value?

Thats what Op is saying. That her daughter feel that women wanting to know their worth and value has made men be awful. Women knowing their worth and value, isn’t stopping any hate.

The question should be why do some men feel their worth and value is lower when women recognise their own worth and values.

I'm sorry... your DD has been raped twice and shrugged it off?

fuck the misogynistic twats and what they think about body counts

what is worrying here is that your dd attaches so little value to herself that she just shrugs off rape. is it because she thinks no one will listen to her?

Conversations with my teenage grandsons are pretty depressing - they feel like second class citizens of the "slugs and snails" variety, thinking people regard them as having no morals or respect for girls - wanting to know why they are seen like this. I have to keep telling them that I am proud of who they are and they should be too.

I'm not so sure what 'millennial feminism' refers to (is it the sex-positive kind?), partly, because it seems to me that the last real feminist wave was the second wave and everything after that has been a reaction to its partial victories, including attempts to erase those victories. Or at least tiny ripples after that big wave.

But in any case it helps for feminism to always ask these kinds of questions (if only in your mind) in reverse:

So if a man asks how many 'bodies' a woman has had, then she should ask how many 'bodies' he has had, and if the number of those brands him as not 'husband' material.

That helps to show clearly which sexist assumptions are operating here and how those assumptions, if not challenged, will make women subjugated (again).

That’s why I said as many or as few. I absolutely think that nobody should be judged for not wanting sex. It may be that on MN as a whole people are given a slap on the back for having many sexual partners but usually on FWR the discussion is more thoughtful.

I'm sorry, I actually missed the raped twice part of OP's post. I was distracted. I've now properly re-read it. Poor, poor girl. It is extremely disturbing that she felt she had to "shrug off" this crime.