Feeling depressed after conversations with my young adult daughters regarding female value.

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I was out for a drink with my 22 daughter a couple of nights ago. She showed me a list of her ‘bodies’ the men she had slept with. It turns out of the 9, 2 were indeed rapes. She shrugged it off and was more concerned about her tally. She says that young women now are deemed to have lower value if they sleep with a lot of people. That the men she meets often ask her how many ‘bodies’ she has had.
she believes that feminism driven by millennials has caused a huge back lash amongst men, given raise to people like Andrew Tate and devalued women.
I was so horrified.
The next day I asked my 20 year old daughter if she concurred with this and she did.
So we are going backwards. Young women are deemed higher value the purer they are.
I feel so bloody sad and angry.
I hoped for better for my daughters.

I agree that the easy accessibility of porn etc has undoubtedly influenced what men 'expect' and think of as normal from sex, but don't see how being judged on how many people you've slept with is in any way a new thing?

The virgin/whore complex has been a thing since the history of time.
Not wanting sex/very small number of partners = prudish, uptight
Enjoy sex and had a lot of partners = slag/slapper/loose woman etc.

As a 'millennial woman' who has apparently ruined feminism, we might not have used the exact phrase 'body count' but it was normal to discuss how many people you'd slept with with friends etc 20 years ago.

This is so depressing, I'm sorry OP. I have two v young DS and I want to teach them to respect women.

Social media and easy access to porn is clearly a big issue, I just hope I can show them how to not fall down that rabbit hole when they get older.

Agree with this. Women being judged for 'sleeping around' is as old as time (not that that excuses it). I'm more concerned about the fact she's been raped twice and shrugged it off. Does she just consider it normal?

This saddens me but doesn't surprise me. OP. I'm involved in a number of lesbian groups and a lot of older lesbians with daughters report that their daughters wish they were lesbians. They are straight and sexually attracted to men but can't find decent men they're attracted to to form relationships with. They envy their mums and the supportive networks that older lesbians have built and maintain.

Since I grew up in the 70s many women have really learned to value their careers and independence and set their standards for relationships high. This is something that society is going to have difficulty adjusting to: it has relied on women being so desperate to marry that they'd have almost any man. And of course so many men are now porn-addled and Tate-addled and can't relate to real women at all that the number of halfway decent candidates seems to be reducing. It's an issue that's not going to go away.

In the meantime, OP, if I was in your shoes I'd tell my daughter to tell any man who wanted to know how many men she's slept with to f**k off and want to talk to her about keeping her standards high and finding ways to build an interesting, rewarding life that may not include a long-term relationship with a man.

This is interesting. I think there is a lot of truth in this.

My youngest ( boy) from the age of five was very sensitive to me saying anything that he saw as being negative about men. Unsurprising really. He knows he is a boy and will become a man. Of course he is sensitive and bothered about negativity about who he is.

I think speaking to boys and young men’s worth is a much more effective way to think about approaching conversations.

Let’s face it. Boys and men really have nothing to gain from feminism and a whole lot to lose. Equality is never going to be an easy sell to those who benefited from inequality. And the rise of misogynistic and degrading internet porn, and other recent social movements, have shown that feminists have never really won over men’s hearts and minds in terms of seeing women as equal. The hard truth is that we do need a serious rethink of how we talk with boys and men if we really want women to be seen as equal humans. We can’t achieve it without them , and we can’t make them listen. We have to find a way to talk they are receptive to. I hate saying that, but it’s true. Porn, Tate and TRAs have shown just how depressingly far we are from women being seen as equal human beings.

( ps I don’t put a Jordan Peterson in this camp at all. From what I have heard from him, he’s man who deeply cares about human suffering, openly cries when confronted with it, and wants to do what he can to help people help themselves to live constructive and purposeful lives).

BTW, yes the ‘body count’ thing is a real thing amongst young people. It’s a rather disturbing revelation about how their culture has disconnected sex from human connection. .

So nothing has changed. Men covering up their insecurities and anxiety by trying to control women. Referring to "competitors" as bodies, dehumanising them. They watch porn and think that is what they are up against. Sad in a way, but they are doing it to themselves and then turning it into a problem for women, so my compassion is limited. Next time this comes up, your daughter could ask them if they are worried about how they will compare. That might shut them up.

I think online porn has made things a lot worse.

Am gen x and was very lucky with the boys and young men I encountered.

Never heard of ‘bodies’ it sounds horrible. Does she like using that word? And raped by 2 men? Poor poor girl! I think I would be arranging some therapy for her if she would accept it?

Maybe I’m getting old but it was just so different when I was younger - at uni even if you did sleep around a bit I don’t remember much judgement, men didn’t tend to ask your ‘number’. I don’t think me and my husband have ever really discussed it! I suspect his is fairly high from stories from his friends 😂 and I don’t think he could care less about mine.

Sadly it isn't a new thing.

Women have always been damned if they do or damned if they don't.
Fridgid or a slag, while men are studs, patted on the back and praised.

I do agree with her about the backlash. There is always backlash when women inch a tiny bit for themselves. It gets bigger the more we inch forward

Men don't want to lose their power. Especially the men who hold no power over other men.
They also don't want to have to take responsibility for their own behaviour.

she believes that feminism driven by millennials has caused a huge back lash amongst men

Maybe you should as her to reflect on this and ask why, like in so many of these situations, the blame and anger, instead of being directed at the men who hate women wanting to be treated equally, it is always turned back on women?

Why are some women so angry at other women for wanting better, instead of the men who want to keep women beneath them, less than, obedient?

There is nothing new there. Men have always wanted to have a pool of women who want casual sex with them, and to end up with a woman who is not part of that pool, because they don't like the thought that other men have 'used' her as they feel they use women.
I think there may be fewer men like this now (partly necessity driven as 'pure' women are too thin on the ground for then to find one) but it's still a prevailing attitude.What women do with that, I don't know, but I guess it boils down to either comply with male expectations, withhold and go without casual sex in order to be valued; or decide that what men want and value is not their concern, and live their lives as they please. It seems to me that women want to both do what they want and have men approve of them. Which is very often mutually exclusive, so they need to choose. I know which I'd pick.

When she showed me the list of ‘bodies’ there were notes next to each one. All of them appeared to be shit shags apart from one.
I have absolutely told her to tell them to F off if they ask.
the rape thing? She knows it is awful but perhaps not quite as much as she should have. I was at pains to stress the seriousness of what had happened.
She says she feels odd about it because she still finds one of the boys/ men very attractive.
I am 56 and NEVER experienced any of this. I slept with loads of different men and not one asked me about my sexual history.
perhaps I was just lucky- but my value didn’t seem to diminish just because I was obviously experienced.I saw it as just my business and had every right to have consensual sex as often as I wanted with as men as I wanted.

I have an 18 year old ds and we have quite an open relationship. However, i cannot imagine going out with ds for a meal /drink and him whipping out his shag list with ratings next to the girls... that's disgusting. Referring to people as bodies is foul, very dehumanising. I'm sorry that your ds experienced non consensual sex but her referring to boys /men as bodies, rating them and then discussing the list with her mum is wrong. How is your dd any different from the men she has sex with as she also views them as commodities?

I guess the first difference that springs to mind is that she hasn't raped any of them.

Did you show her a list of your bodies? Eurgh. I have heard the term but would never use it in relation to anything other than something dead!

if this is true which I'm sure it's not then I apologise. Especially to your daughter

I think internet porn has a lot to answer for. The depictions of aggressive and demeaning sex towards women and the fact that there are no age controls on who can watch them in the secrecy of their own homes has created the problem.
Monsters like Tate simply fuel an appetite that has already been set by those who create this vile pornography.
It is a worry, particularly when you read stories like this

The only answer to the question how many people have you slept with? Is 'That is absolutely none of your business, and you should never ask me that again'. End of.

Thinking about it, the mainstream aggressive pornography we see now did not occur in a vacuum either. If men had been disgusted by the images they were seeing, the porn industry would have changed direction and we would have a very different type of pornography now. But they didn’t. They’ve embraced it, world wide, with much enthusiasm.

The core problem is that men’s underlying attitudes to women never really changed. That is what we need to address. But how?

No and I said I was sorry for that but the rape(s) are still on the list and apparently rated in terms of prowess. 9 is a lot at 22 (imo and others I'm sure) and if Op's dd stops seeing men as commodities she might build a happy, successful relationship with a man who does not view women in that way - because many men don't. Rape is wrong and abhorrent under any circumstances.

The problem is that women no longer NEED men but men haven't adjusted to this and upped their game in response.

Fifty years ago women needed a man to get a mortgage/loan etc and for social acceptance.

Now women have the freedom to choose if having a man actually adds positivity to their lives.

Research consistently shows that being married benefits men more than women, in terms of health, happiness and life expectancy. In fact being married has a negative impact on women's health, happiness and life expectancy compared to single women.

Men still think that they have the same value to us that they have always had and are angry because they feel entitled have a wife/girlfriend just for existing.

I am a bit confused . She showed me a list on her phone. The list was titled ‘bodies’. That is what young people use as a term it seems.

I have been asked about my sexual history and I have asked the men I have been with. It says something about what kind of people they are, the meaning sex they attach to sex etc. I don't think that is the problem. The problem is referring to "bodies" and the value judgement attached to numbers over 3(?).

Two rapes are horrific. I am very sorry she experienced that.

@Bbq1 A lot according to you? Different people approach sex differently and that's their right. I am sure you don't want to be judged for being inexperienced. ;-) You are insinuating that OP's daughter is at fault. If only she changes her attitude and becomes more pure, men will love and cherish her. We all know that is not true. Virgins can be (and are!) raped.

It so apparently a common term used by her generation. I agree that it is awful but she didn’t invent it. She is simply using the common parlance. The men also refer to other men as bodies. Not ‘how many men have you had sex with?’ But ‘ how many bodies have you had?’
My daughter has always been very open about her life, her body, personal issues etc with me and I am very glad she feels able to discuss these things with me.

@Bbq1 she wants to have decent, enjoyable aex. There is nothing wrong with that. Maybe if she finds a man who is any good in bed and seems half decent then she won’t keep searching. Until then there is nothing wrong with it . No one seems to have a problem with young men shagging around.

9 is a lot at 22 (imo and others I'm sure)

In the opinion of judgemental arses, perhaps. Stop being part of the problem @Bbq1 .

(And it's only around 2 a year if she started at 18. Really not excessive for someone in their prime dating years.)