Feeling depressed after conversations with my young adult daughters regarding female value.

[BigButtons]

I was out for a drink with my 22 daughter a couple of nights ago. She showed me a list of her ‘bodies’ the men she had slept with. It turns out of the 9, 2 were indeed rapes. She shrugged it off and was more concerned about her tally. She says that young women now are deemed to have lower value if they sleep with a lot of people. That the men she meets often ask her how many ‘bodies’ she has had.
she believes that feminism driven by millennials has caused a huge back lash amongst men, given raise to people like Andrew Tate and devalued women.
I was so horrified.
The next day I asked my 20 year old daughter if she concurred with this and she did.
So we are going backwards. Young women are deemed higher value the purer they are.
I feel so bloody sad and angry.
I hoped for better for my daughters.

@ginasevern thank you. I agree, such an awful thing to deal with. I’m so sad that the state of the criminal justice system and the often appalling treatment of rape victims makes reporting these crimes into additional trauma that many victims understandably want to avoid.

I think the focus on numbers or “bodies” (horrible derogatory term) confuses the issue. To me promiscuity is not necessarily about how many people you have slept with - that number can easily creep up in your 20s - but your behaviour / attitude towards sex.

Say you start being sexually active at 17/18 and have a couple of boyfriends at uni, date a few different people until you find the right person that you are happy and compatible with, romantically and sexually.

That isn’t being promiscuous to me at all, but could add up to 9, 10 people. Taking a stranger home with you from a nightclub every Saturday? That would be promiscuous behaviour to me.

No judgement here by the way, as long as any sex is safe, consensual and enjoyable. Just making the point that it’s not just about a number.

I agree with PP’s that the term “bodies” and the idea of keeping a list is horrible. I’m going to ask my DD ( nearly 19) whether that’s also typical among her friend group, I really hope it isn’t.

Your DD has had some awful experiences, I’m sure you must be very worried about her, OP. I don’t quite know what to advise except to reiterate to her that non-consensual sex (rape) is never, ever acceptable and she shouldn’t feel that she can’t report it.

You think women who have few sexual partners are better ("some are choosier"), than those who have many partners ("meaningless, cheap sex", "saying yes to every potential screw that came along"). Why can't everyone choose what suits them? Why must there be a value judgement? Some, like you say, are looking for deep connection, commitment, love and trust. Others look for fun and excitement and attach less meaning to the whole thing. Why do you think the former is superior?

Having just one partner isn't a bad thing. It is also not a good thing. It is just one choice of many. A choice that doesn't make anyone better or worse.

Do you apply the same value judgement to men who are "sleeping around"?

I used the term inexperience, because nothing comes without a downside and I wanted to make that clear. No one can have it all.

Agree 100%

I'm a great deal older than all of you and it was always ever thus.

Yes, i do apply the same value judgement to men who are promiscuous especially if they refer to themselves and women as bodies, keep a written list complete with ratings - only difference there is i doubt they share the list with their mums over a glass of wine. That is a really odd thing for an adult child to do.

It seems op is describing 2 issues

the first, that women who have lots of casual sex are deemed to have lower value.

the second, that somehow OP’s dd has commingled her sexual life and non consensual sexual encounters and given them a kind of equality.

i fail to see what role feminism plays in either issue, either directly or as a backlash. The valuation of women by sexual activity long pre-dates the feminist movement.

that the daughter includes her rapes on her “bodies” list is quite disturbing to me. Yes, in the way I was taught to disclose, everyone you have had sex with matters because everyone is a disease vector. But it isn’t 1990 and I don’t think these young adults are trading lists so that if one of them gets an std they can start sending messages to beepers.

so maybe this is a failure of feminism. A failure to show that sex does have value. That your choice matters so much that if you do not consent, that name should not be on your list.

@BigButtons I realise you've had a shock here OP

At some point, I'd ask her about this bit "she believes that feminism driven by millennials has caused a huge back lash amongst men, given raise to people like Andrew Tate and devalued women"

I don't think the Tate type appeared in isolation, but women are not to blame for the behaviour of him and his ilk.

I'm not quite understanding or believing that a mums first thought , on finding that her young daughter has been raped twice, comes on to mumsnet to discuss female values on a feminism board??? i would be in bits.

Are you saying you are proud your daughter slept with quite few men by 22 and that there is something wrong with being a virgin?

No-one should be regarding the fellow people they have sex with as ‘bodies’. No wonder the daughter shrugs of rape if she has internalized a belief in herself as a body for a man to have sex with, rather than a person who can be violated.

in fact the daughter dos seem to have absorbed an accepted a huge amount of current cultural misogyny.

See I think this is worrying. People tend to live up to how they think people see them. If we want men to see women as equals, we need a culture where they know that is expected of them and they know people believe they are capable of this.
If they already feel they are damned, why bother? I mean, there are a lot of advantages to them in not respecting women or seeing them as equal. Why not listen to Andrew Tate if everyone thinks you are shit anyway?

The term "bodies" alone is new to me

I have heard "body count" and Jason Derulo wrote a song with that title.

I find it revolting but it does seem to be a term that gets used quite frequently.

I've not heard of "slugs and snails" that pp referenced.

Yes, and then buy a copy of Hags by Victoria Smith for both of you to read.

I have DDs similar age and I agree on how they've been treated by men and the Andrew Tate is disturbingly on many young men's radar, even in men my DDs seem to think are respectful to them. My oldest DD has been raped...it was awful. She's okay now, but it's been long road, useless police help (although sympathetic). She didn't tell me, I was told by a concerned counselor who wasn't authorized to tell me but did anyway because she sensed from DD that I was a safe/helpful mother. I'll forever be grateful for her risking her employment and telling me because then I was able to help DD and I no longer worried if DD had some kind of pathology, rather I knew why her behavior was the way it was. DD didn't want to tell us because she didn't want us to have the pain of knowing what happened to her. When she'd come home with cuts and bruises, she was carrying a skateboard and announced she was learning how to skate...she faked an interest in skating for a few months so we wouldn't question her injuries. I'm ashamed to say I fell for it.

I try really hard to remind my DDs that the men watching Tate and watching violent porn are learning how to treat them. Porn-obsessed men, 'purity' demanding men damage young women. It's utterly depressing. I wish I had better answers. I just try to talk to them about their rights to demand their partners treat them well and they have rights to tell men "no porn. no Tate, etc."

I agree with PP that disclosing sexual experiences with others should be strongly discouraged. While I'm not trying to pretend I was a virgin until I met him, I've never 'disclosed' how many men I've slept w/ to my DH of 2 decades. He's of course aware of who my long-term boyfriends had been, but I never shared sex details! He doesn't want details and I don't feel that's his business (doubt I'd remember it all anyways as it was so long ago!). It's NO man's business what you did before you met him, especially if you're just casually dating. Of course, choose to tell your spouse what you want, but 'body counts' is no one's business but your own.

I agree, @Delphinium20. My DH and I have never discussed previous partners except in very general terms, I have no desire to know his number of bodies and vice versa. We both know the names of a couple of more serious partners and have seen some old photos, but that’s about it. Mind you, we’re all late 40’s/early 50’s now so we might not recognize each other anymore. 🤣

Whilst the language has changed the message is no different to when I was young - sleep around = bad girl. I remember watching a comedy and the female lead was saying when a man asks you how many men you have been with you say 2, the night I got drunk and my first true love (might have been My Family or something like that) really not that different.

I personally wouldn't be comfortable with a man who had had lots of girlfriends, so it is no different

Agree with this.

OP, did your daughter fully recognise the rape incidents for what they were before your conversation? I got the impression from your first post that she was conflicted over it.

My dd is 22. She is objectively very beautiful and gets male attention where ever she goes. Some of it is very intrusive and distressing and she knows how toxic and pushy men can be. She tells me about experiences like your dd’s through her friends and she finds it shocking.

What has helped my dd is that our family is full of lovely supportive men. She has observed over many years how real gentlemen talk and behave. I’ve also drilled into her since she was a toddler to know her worth and not put up for one second of male bullshit and arrogance. (She’s also never seen me be the domestic doormat of the house).

I think we all have a duty to arm and teach our daughters from an early age about living in a patriarchy. I think once they are able to see the world through the lens of male privilege and male predatory behaviour, they will be better equipped to rise above it and avoid it.

My daughter chose to go and live with my ex- her father - some years ago. The family dynamic is not at all good. He was physically and emotionally abusive. She confronts him about the things he did every now and again. The males living in the house are like mini versions of their father and it breaks my heart.
of course this will all be relevant to the way she views men and relationships.

@Screamingabdabz your post seems a twist on victim blaming, on mothers and fathers.

It also seems naive. you can’t ‘rise above’ a rapist, for example.

I'm 60 and no man ever asked me how many men I'd slept with. They would have been told it was no concern of theirs, if they had. If they raised it a second time they would have been dumped.

I feel so sorry for your dds. How have they got to the point they value themselves so little and waste their time with such creeps? They need to reset their social lives, change their surroundings and most of all, build up their self respect and self worth.

I'm raising a teen ds and the whole issue of male-female relationships needs active guidance at the moment. Ds knows AT is loathsome but he came out with the worry that girls will only date men who earn 80k and have a bmw. 🙄

Until I pointed out that would mean 90% of the male population would be single.

I spend my time reassuring him that he will find his niche, and showing him how life works - positive role models, people with happy lives (without earning 80k).
Taking away the pressure, making sure he doesn't worry about that stuff too early. I introduce him to as many different social situations as I can so he has a choice. Give him as many skills and as much confidence as possible. Make sure he knows he will have help if he wants it. But that women are equals and everyone has the same struggles and worries.

The teen years probably need the most intervention.