They / them at work

[pootlefump]

I've just written a long post and it's disappeared so in brief - how do you deal with staff who are they/them at work? I will really struggle to call a very obvious biological male 'they'. I also can't loose my job and do want to be respectful but also can't change my view on this nonsense !

You asked me in what ways Lia is similar to a real woman and I gave a list of ways. How you’ve managed to twist that into I think the swim team is lying is beyond me.

I’ve said repeatedly that Lia should not be in women’s sports.

As for assumptions, if you don’t want to hear any of those, then don’t ask me stupid questions. Obviously I don’t have her here with me.

You only asked so you could pick apart the answer anyway. I’m not going to answer any more from you, since you’re incapable of playing fair, so desperate are you to prove your prejudice correct.

Unhappiness, wishfulness and cosmetic changes/dress sense? No, that's not similar to a biological woman.

That's leveraging mummy instincts and emotional blackmail to nurture a sad male by pretending, and saying that a woman's just an outer appearance that a male can mimic. It's deeply sexist stuff.

And no, a male with their body trying to process hormones it was not designed for so as to create outer cosmetic changes is radically unlike a female body doing what it does naturally.

I posted a study from Harvard that said mixed bathrooms don’t affect safety.

Can you link sources that say transgender men are more violent than men?

Yes. Ministry of Justice. At least they commit sexual crimes at a higher rate. Why are you ignoring this?

On the contrary - it's transwomen and their allies who are saying that "women" don't exist.

If a woman is a "feeling" which cannot be measured, confirmed (or even described, because it means different things to different people - everyone is unique and their "feelings" are individual and special and cannot be challenged), and anyone, of either sex can claim to experience this "feeling" and say that they are a "woman", then there is no such thing as a "woman".

"Woman" just becomes a word that means "person" - because there is no defining characteristics for "woman". That means that "woman" as a class of human beings, doesn't exist.

It is TRAs that are denying the existence of an entire sex class.

you would be labelled a TERF for not wanting Lia in the ladies swim team and you've still not explained why you'd exclude some people you consode to be women from women's sports. The physical advantage thing is a red herring because the bother women on the swim team clearly have a physical advantage compared to other women. Why is Lia's particular advantage bothersome to you? She's a woman so her body is a woman's body isn't it?

We don’t need to look across the pond. Analysis of data from the UK shows that nearly all reports of offenses in changing rooms are in gender neutral facilities. Single sex spaces are safer by far.

Which is exactly what one would expect.

Perfectly put.

By transgender men do you mean transmen (ie women) or trans-identifying men (ie men)?

If the latter, a much larger proportion of violent male sexual offenders claim to be trans-identifying, than not. This suggests that either trans-identifying men are more likely to be violent sexual offenders than non-trans-identifying men in the general population, or that violent sexual offenders grasp the opportunities offered by claiming trans-identity.

Either way, the ones who pay the price are women and children.

Well, funny you should ask.

For men in prison, 20% of them are there for sexual offences.

For men who say they are women in prison, that percentage is nearly 60%. And when you consider that some have been released because the judge didn't want to put them in a female prison, that actual figure could be much higher.

So 3 times as much, if not more.

Yes, try to get something approaching the size of a baby’s head through a neovagina!

@Belichtofalicht: "Posters here deny completely that men can be women in any way at all….ergo, trans women do not exist".

Nope. Not at all. That's a super example of a non-sequitor. What does follow ("ergo") is only that trans women (like everyone else) cannot be men who are women - a somewhat unexceptional truth.

I find this misunderstanding about existential consequences of mere description hard to fathom. Yet it seems quite common in such discourse. So it might be worth looking at again.

Try to understand, @Belichtofalicht. To claim your description of yourself is false is not to claim you don't exist.

--Try with other descriptions:

"I'm cool, me!" ... "Erh, no you're not." ... "Aargh, you're claiming I don't exist!" ...

"I'm Elvis, me! I swear I am! I'm Elvis!" ... "Erh, no you're not, you're just that guy works down the chipshop." ... "Aargh, you're claiming I don't exist!" ...

Compare:

"I'm a woman, me!" ... "Erh, no, you're a man." ..."Aargh, you're claiming I don't exist!" ...

... "Do stop being so silly."

Understand, @Belichtofalicht (and others)? Think about it.

You sound like that guy on Twitter a few years ago who insisted that TW were women, and that they had every right to use women's spaces, take women's scholorships, be given jobs reserved for women because the sex of the person in the role was important.

Then he eventually admitted that he would NEVER have sex with a TW, despite arguing that they were women, genuine women, real women in every single way . . . except for relationships.

As has been pointed out: only a man can be a transwoman.

And all those people who were victimised in unisex change rooms in the UK last night are what? Unimportant to you?

Most of them were children. Girls to be exact.

@Belichtofalicht are you a bot? You seem unable to answer questions without going in circles to previous debunked arguments?

By ‘transgender men’ do you mean transmen or transwomen? The trouble with blurring the formerly clear categories is that no-one knows what anyone means any more. Indeed, the evidence of this thread is that Belichtofalicht isn’t clear which category s/he is referring to at times, because the categories are unclear.

It’s not. It’s inclusive.

The plausibility of deploying Turing Test bots has been raised before on FWR…

I’m not writing an academic paper on here. Just typing fast on a very small smartphone. I’m sure you can figure out what I mean.

There were other points I wanted to make, but I can’t be bothered.

Don't blame you.

Explaining obvious and simple facts to people too stupid understand or too determined to chant the mantra to take the time to think, is just such a waste of time.

The thing that I don't understand @Belichtofalicht is that you say that the aspects of transwomen that make them unfair to compete with women are physical aspects, yet you say transwomen pass entirely. If someone has such obvious physical aspects that give them an advantage in sports, then surely women can see those and know that they are men? You can't have it both ways. I applaud all who are engaging with you as the lack of logic is very frustrating.

The organising principals appear to be:

Saying they are women

Role-playing what they think a woman

Being a biological man

Yep. That's really all these people have. The thing we're real meanies for not believing in.

Well if you are right, they are a "type of woman" who shouldn't be in any women's spaces either.

@Belichtofalicht are you a bot?

find this misunderstanding about existential consequences of mere description hard to fathom. Yet it seems quite common in such discourse. So it might be worth looking at again.

Try to understand, @Belichtofalicht. To claim your description of yourself is false is not to claim you don't exist.

--Try with other descriptions:

"I'm cool, me!" ... "Erh, no you're not." ... "Aargh, you're claiming I don't exist!" ...

"I'm Elvis, me! I swear I am! I'm Elvis!" ... "Erh, no you're not, you're just that guy works down the chipshop." ... "Aargh, you're claiming I don't exist!" ...

Compare:

"I'm a woman, me!" ... "Erh, no, you're a man." ..."Aargh, you're claiming I don't exist!" ...

... "Do stop being so silly."

Perfectly done!