They / them at work

[pootlefump]

I've just written a long post and it's disappeared so in brief - how do you deal with staff who are they/them at work? I will really struggle to call a very obvious biological male 'they'. I also can't loose my job and do want to be respectful but also can't change my view on this nonsense !

“values for strength, LBM and muscle area in transwomen remain above those of cisgender women, even after 36 months of hormone therapy”

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33648944/#:~:text=In%20contrast%2C%20hormone%20therapy%20decreases,3%20years%20of%20hormone%20therapy.

I don’t think Males should be in Female spaces or sports ever, even after estrogen therapy.

Happy for them to have their own spaces though.

Well, no. If they have transitioned from male to female, then they are a subset of women.

She was clear and that's special pleading.

You can't define how a man lives as a woman without using sexist stereotypes. That's why you won't.

I do believe they are a type of woman. They are not exactly the same as women. They are trans women, which is not the same as a woman, but a type of woman nonetheless.

Seemingly you don’t realise, Belichtofalicht, that what you have written is gobbledegook.

If they’re not the same as women, how can they be a type of woman?

This is completely illogical and incoherent.

If I were to say “lorries are not the exactly the same as cars but are a type of car nonetheless,” you would say I was talking nonsense.

And you’d be right. And that’s exactly what you’re doing here.

Do you even know what you mean by the word “woman”?

I have never seen anyone, straight, gay, trans, effeminate, young, old, disabled, ethic minority or any other group made mincemeat of in any of the thousands of men’s loos I have used in my many decades of being a man. That includes loos in rough places where I felt uncomfortable, the sorts of places where the Police go around in pairs for safety.

What makes transwomen not men? Is it their clothing? Their makeup? Their say so? Their hormone treatment? Their breast ‘enhancements’? Their genital surgery? Their cervixes and ovaries (that none of them have)? Their XX chromosomes (that none of them have)? Their she/her preferred pronouns? Their ‘feminine’ mannerisms? Their entry into women’s spaces? Their long hair, whether natural or a wig?

Or do they just wish to be treated as if they were women, and that is the definition of transwoman? I want to be treated as the wisest and most respected person in the world, but it doesn’t make me so.

Well, no. If they have transitioned from male to female, then they are a subset of women.

That's your belief, yes. Not mine 🤷‍♀️

Males can’t actually BECOME female you big silly!

Sex is determined by a combo of chromosomes, genitals, gonads and gametes.

Men can cut their gonads and genitals off but they can’t grow female gonads, produce ovum or delete their Y chromosome.

This deffo looks like male pattern offending to me:

https://transcrimeuk.com/category/sexual-offences/

Groupthink is a phenomenon that occurs when a group of individuals reaches a consensus without critical reasoning or evaluation of the consequences or alternatives. Groupthink is based on a common desire not to upset the balance of a group of people.

No we're actually trying to resist groupthink even though people are trying to push it on us.

Hear, hear.

It’s not my belief, either.

And frankly IMO it’s a deeply misogynistic and homophobic belief. Not one I’d be proud to have.

They can’t become the same as women, no, but they can become a kind of woman: a trans woman. Someone who has become as physically close to being a woman as he can, who takes female hormones, and who believes strongly that they were meant to be a woman and felt deeply not at home in their male body. That’s a trans woman, and to me, it’s a type of woman, if not a full
biological one.

@Belichtofalicht

Also, are you going to acknowledge your false claim about trans murder rates in the US? Don't you read your own links? 320 is the whole world, of which most were in Latin America. The idea that there is a high murder rate of trans people in the US or Europe is a myth.

And frankly IMO it’s a deeply misogynistic and homophobic belief. Not one I’d be proud to have.

I agree.

I don’t know where the stuff about make pattern offending has come from. The list above and someone saying to me that I have no transsexual crime stats. Are people getting me mixed up with another poster?

That’s a trans woman, and to me, it’s a type of woman, if not a full
biological one.

What are the common factors shared by all women, that make them all part of the same group?

but they can become a kind of woman: a trans woman

They are a subset of males, not women. So they haven't undergone some magical act of transformation.

You said transwomen were harmless and a subset of women.

I think this poster is extremely disingenuous.

Hey, it was the NHS’s concept, not mine! They required potential trans patients to live as women before having treatment. I’m guessing they meant wearing women’s clothes and going out dressed as a woman not a man. I remember reading an article about it in a magazine at the time. They had to live as a woman at all times. I guess to find out if they really do want to live as a woman.

I was working in a dept store as a student and a man dressed as a woman came in. He wanted to buy a bra. Apparently the staff member was very kind to him, and he came back with a box of chocs for her. It was after the article, so I guessed he was doing his two years doing his best to live like a woman. Shopping for a bra wearing women’s clothes is something that most women would do at some point.

Again, the NHS’s idea, not mine!

I work with a few… they are all young and two are genuinely lovely young people. They don’t make a big deal of it (unheard of, I know!) They have both told me that they are autistic (this is pretty clear) and that they don’t know where they fit in at all re gender or sexuality. They also know that they appear m or f to us and that it is our default reaction to identify them thusly and they don’t mind or make a big deal about it. Because of this, I am inspired to try and remember how they prefer to be identified and refer to them appropriately. They are genuinely kind, empathetic young people who are good at their jobs and empathetic when working with other vulnerable people so I have a lot of time for these two.
The other one is a total piece of work. Attention-seeking, bearded knobend who likes to break uniform rules by wearing sparkly tiaras and fake nails (extremely unhygienic and a massive NO in our role) and complaining to HR about everyone and anything. They’re either bullied, misgendered or excluded constantly.) They have form for sexually harassing newer, younger staff members of both sexes and being overheard making loud, insulting comments about vulnerable patients by other patients and their families and when their contract is not renewed shortly, my guess is that they are going to attempt union involvement. *The other two have preemptively gone to the union (advice from HR) because they feel like the knobend is riding their “issues” (nonexistent)!59 further their own agenda and they don’t want a bar of it - worried they are going to be dragged unwillingly into drama.

Hey, it was the NHS’s concept, not mine! They required potential trans patients to live as women before having treatment. I’m guessing they meant wearing women’s clothes and going out dressed as a woman not a man. I remember reading an article about it in a magazine at the time. They had to live as a woman at all times

But they aren't living as a woman, they are role playing.

In my experience some people use "non binary" identity for power and control over others. It requires very little personal effort, and people frequently slip up, as it's difficult to remember to call people by non sex based pronouns etc. Which means that some people can easily hold it over people and use it to provoke confrontation or play the victim.

I have to deal with a she/they

Oh, I see. Thank you.

Well, most trans women are harmless, in the sense that most PEOPLE are harmless. Most trans women don’t hurt others.

I tried to look up stats of how many trans women murder others, but all that comes up is trans people being murdered. Except there’s been at least one trans serial killer.

The fear of trans women here is crazy.

Less men are harmless to women than other women.

Until they transition, I guess they are. And no, they still won’t be living as real women, as they won’t have periods etc.