They / them at work

[pootlefump]

I've just written a long post and it's disappeared so in brief - how do you deal with staff who are they/them at work? I will really struggle to call a very obvious biological male 'they'. I also can't loose my job and do want to be respectful but also can't change my view on this nonsense !

Why can’t transwomen, transmen & nonbinary people have their own single user toilets?

As soon as a man steps into a single sex space it becomes a mixed sex space.

Lots of women do not consent to males in female spaces and you are not permitted to override that.

No, that doesn't mean that a group of males with a common claim that they are women do not exist. My estimation of your ability to understand basic logic is getting lower and lower.

Perhaps you could try some sort of class, as you so rudely suggested to others?

The only way to live as a woman is to be conceived as a female zygote, be born a girl and live to the age of majority.

Oh, I know how to define living as a woman. It’s you who doesn’t know. And I think teaching you that is out of my skill set.

I think teaching anyone anything is probably out of your skill set, kindly.

Oh, I know how to define living as a woman. It’s you who doesn’t know. And I think teaching you that is out of my skill set.

Define it then. I'll help you along a bit - no one 'lives as a woman'. You either are or you aren't. Transwomen aren't women. They are men, they wouldn't be trans if they weren't. One can't exist without the other.

Why aren't you answering about Lia Thomas?

Seems a bit transphobic to not recognise the aspect of transwomen that is unique to them - ie being male.

What's living as a woman to a biological man. A biological man can only guess. A woman is more than a skirt, lipstick and long hair.

Woman are women in every cell in their body which a biological man could never achieve.

@Belichtofalicht is all over the place as well. One minute Lia Thomas is trying it on, the next Lia is a "woman" with "differences".

What's living as a woman to a biological man. A biological man can only guess. A woman is more than a skirt, lipstick and long hair.

@Belichtofalicht won't address this, or attempt a definition, because they know full well it's all about sexist stereotypes.

I agree with all the above except your last clause. I do believe they are a type of woman. They are not exactly the same as women. They are trans women, which is not the same as a woman, but a type of woman nonetheless.

Science has given us a second type of men and women - ie trans men and women. They’re not the same as the Duchy Originals, but they’re somewhat close, in my view.

Yes, in your view. But not in many other people's. And your view isn't particularly consistent or coherent. But again, it's always good to be challenged by people who believe differently, isn't it?

Why does L Thomas have a biological/skeletal/muscular/etc advantage - as is conceded by Beli?

Because L Thomas was born XY (male).

L Thomas is always going to be XY (male).

L Thomas can refer to self as Transwoman (trans-identified male).

Every single person on this section of Mumsnet acknowledges that L Thomas identifies as a Transwoman, and that L Thomas EXISTS.

Transwomen exist.

Transwomen MUST be male to identify as a transwoman.

Due to being biologically male, transwomen need to stay out of female spaces/sports/etc.

Many, if not most, posters here advocate for a third space for transgender people (a gender neutral toilet, open category for sport, etc). It is transgender people who reject the third space option.

There were other points I wanted to make, but I can’t be bothered.

I mean, hormonal changes have a dramatic effect on making a trans person look like their preferred sex. Those changes together with cosmetic ones and maybe surgery make her a trans woman. Not the same as a woman, but definitely not a man.

The treatment can’t make her bones, ligaments, heart and lungs smaller, so she should not be able to compete against women. She’s still a trans woman, not a man.

so the special new type of ‘woman’ who is biologically male can have a special new type of sports category and toileting/changing space?

And Lia can still punch as hard as man?

Define it then. I'll help you along a bit - no one 'lives as a woman'. You either are or you aren't. Transwomen aren't women. They are men, they wouldn't be trans if they weren't. One can't exist without the other.

This.

We don’t take away the rights of men to be around women. That’s not true.

Men are around women all the time when they’re vulnerable. Men mix in society with pregnant women, men swim with women when the latter may be wearing tiny bikinis, most council pools have mixed-sex changing rooms and mixed-sex communal showers poolside, where everyone keeps their swimsuit in while showering, men are at liberty to pounce on women who are walking alone at night - it’s not like men have a curfew! - and there are no security guards at isolated toilets checking that no one lies in wait.

And where I live, ALL the toilets seem to be down lots of steps into basements and along corridors. I don’t worry about trans women in those isolated corridors, who have been somewhat weakened by hormonal treatment and might have had their penis removed. I worry about men!

About trans women sexual assault rates being different, different from what? And do you mean rates of assault ON trans women or BY trans women?

Muscle mass and strength decrease when men take oestrogen in doses for transition purposes, so almost certainly not as hard as a man.

Don't be disingenuous, please. It's perfectly clear what she meant.

It's estimated that less than 5% of MTF trans people in the U.K. have "had their penis removed".

if that’s true why can’t Lia compete with biological females?

Please do supply data on both.

Transwomen are male and guess what? Their pattern of behaviour is NO different to males as a class. So it is correct to also exclude them as a group.
You have zero evidence that transwomen sexual assault rates are different do you?

Seeing as you oddly quoted your own post replying to the pp when you claimed not to understand her, not the pp post you took issue with, I'm reproducing it to show how obviously she meant male pattern violence of MTF trans people.

Then please tell me. I haven’t quoted any stats and she didn’t say different to WHAT, or who’s assaulting who. She wasn’t clear. That’s completely different from posters asking me to define simple words like genuine or how one lives as a woman.