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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

They / them at work

1000 replies

pootlefump · 14/03/2024 18:59

I've just written a long post and it's disappeared so in brief - how do you deal with staff who are they/them at work? I will really struggle to call a very obvious biological male 'they'. I also can't loose my job and do want to be respectful but also can't change my view on this nonsense !

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29
TathingScinsel · 17/03/2024 21:22

I’ll stick to pools with women-only change rooms, ta very much.

worstofbothworlds · 17/03/2024 21:28

Belichtofalicht · 17/03/2024 15:41

Have they completed their transition? Taken hormones for a few years, maybe had surgery? As uni students, I doubt it.

Without a few years of hormone treatment, of course they look like men.

25 years ago, the NHS used to require that someone live as the opposite sex for two years before getting treatment.

They are clearly male, often over 6 ft, male face, hips, feet, walk, voice, Adam's apple. None of that will change with oestrogen.
So few men undergo surgery, it's less than, 20% even take hormones. You are either hopelessly naive or have an axe to grind.

QueenBitch666 · 17/03/2024 21:41

Just a quick reminder

fairplayforwomen.com/pronouns/

Stormbornform · 17/03/2024 21:46

Just end up saying the name a lot.

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 17/03/2024 21:48

Belichtofalicht · 17/03/2024 10:52

This thread has given me a real insight into the prejudice trans people face. 😳

I think what you are seeing is mostly frustration at the way the most extreme ideas of what it means to be “trans” have been successfully pushed into people’s consciousness, into organisations, into the interpretation of law. This results in real harms, particularly to women, and particularly to women in certain situations. Harms also occur to the people very close to “trans identified” people when demands are made on them to deny reality, and these demands are often coercive because acknowledging reality is often framed as transphobic and there is real and often justified fear of estrangement from children or siblings, for example.

It is not prejudiced to stand up for the truth that it is impossible to change sex, or to argue that there is a better way to deal with “gender dysphoria” than affirmation and the highly euphemistic “gender affirming care”. That better way is to permit or even encourage “gender nonconformity” while not pretending in any way that anyone has changed from being a man to being a woman or vice versa. But so many people have bought into the notion that it is dreadfully impolite or worse to “misgender” someone who sees themself as the opposite sex, or would prefer to be seen as the opposite sex, or would like to be seen as neither male nor female (though this sometimes apparently requires surgery!).

I’m the sort of person who hates upsetting someone else, but I cannot cope with the cognitive dissonance and distress of lying about my son to appease trans allies who think being truthful is bigotry. I, like many others including many women concerned about the eroding rights of women, am very frustrated indeed by the incoherent nonsense that has infected society, and led people like my son onto a dangerous path. That path is dangerous for him, and could be dangerous for women if he gets sucked into the nastier corners of queer ideology.

So there could be times when I come across as prejudiced. I do not believe that to be the case. We need to try to understand each other at a deeper level than what we react to on the surface. I know a trans ally who sees me as transphobic though I love my son and have transgender friends, and appears to make no attempt to understand what I actually think. I don’t do as I’m told, so I am a bigot. That is prejudice on their part.

Have you considered the prejudice gender critical people face? Some have lost their jobs for stating biological reality. Some have lost family members for failing to be delighted enough that those family members are on a path to mutilating their bodies in a futile attempt to become something they are not.

DuesToTheDirt · 17/03/2024 21:59

"COUNCIL bosses have had a rethink on controversial unisex changing rooms after a second case of voyeurism."

It's almost like noone warned them this was likely to happen Confused.

TathingScinsel · 17/03/2024 22:07

DuesToTheDirt · 17/03/2024 21:59

"COUNCIL bosses have had a rethink on controversial unisex changing rooms after a second case of voyeurism."

It's almost like noone warned them this was likely to happen Confused.

Maybe Belichtofalicht is one of the councillors?

Belichtofalicht · 17/03/2024 22:09

TathingScinsel · 17/03/2024 22:07

Maybe Belichtofalicht is one of the councillors?

I live abroad, sorry.

AccidentallyWesAnderson · 17/03/2024 22:12

As long as you have good cubicles, with high walls and no door gaps, I don’t think mixed facilities would be the worst thing, having experienced those pool changing rooms.

It's hardly a good cubicle if someone has a medical emergency like a seizure or collapses and help can't get to them, as pointed out by a PP.

Alicewinn · 17/03/2024 22:15

Perhaps consider taking the time to get to know them on a personal level then it might all feel a less intimidating for you

TathingScinsel · 17/03/2024 22:20

Belichtofalicht · 17/03/2024 22:09

I live abroad, sorry.

Glad you aren’t influencing policy that affects U.K. women and girls!

Hope someone sensible is considering the safety of girls wherever you are.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 17/03/2024 22:41

Jellycatspyjamas · 17/03/2024 14:51

320 trans people were killed in the US in 2023. How can anyone say they’re not vulnerable? And that figure doesn’t include ones who were beaten up or lost their jobs or their families, just for being trans.

The report relates to all trans murders worldwide, not just in the US. It also denotes risks including being sex worker, being black etc etc. But yes 320 is 320 too many lives lost.

In terms of vulnerability though 47,000 women were killed worldwide by intimate partners and close family members. How can anyone say women aren’t vulnerable?

I missed this gem. As pp correctly pointed out @Belichtofalicht 320 is not the annual murder tally for the US, but globally. Most of those murders were in South America. The murder rate of trans people in the US is lower than other people of their sex and race. Most trans murders are of black MTF trans people. The correct comparator is other black men. They have a much lower murder rate than other black men.

Belichtofalicht · 17/03/2024 22:45

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 17/03/2024 21:48

I think what you are seeing is mostly frustration at the way the most extreme ideas of what it means to be “trans” have been successfully pushed into people’s consciousness, into organisations, into the interpretation of law. This results in real harms, particularly to women, and particularly to women in certain situations. Harms also occur to the people very close to “trans identified” people when demands are made on them to deny reality, and these demands are often coercive because acknowledging reality is often framed as transphobic and there is real and often justified fear of estrangement from children or siblings, for example.

It is not prejudiced to stand up for the truth that it is impossible to change sex, or to argue that there is a better way to deal with “gender dysphoria” than affirmation and the highly euphemistic “gender affirming care”. That better way is to permit or even encourage “gender nonconformity” while not pretending in any way that anyone has changed from being a man to being a woman or vice versa. But so many people have bought into the notion that it is dreadfully impolite or worse to “misgender” someone who sees themself as the opposite sex, or would prefer to be seen as the opposite sex, or would like to be seen as neither male nor female (though this sometimes apparently requires surgery!).

I’m the sort of person who hates upsetting someone else, but I cannot cope with the cognitive dissonance and distress of lying about my son to appease trans allies who think being truthful is bigotry. I, like many others including many women concerned about the eroding rights of women, am very frustrated indeed by the incoherent nonsense that has infected society, and led people like my son onto a dangerous path. That path is dangerous for him, and could be dangerous for women if he gets sucked into the nastier corners of queer ideology.

So there could be times when I come across as prejudiced. I do not believe that to be the case. We need to try to understand each other at a deeper level than what we react to on the surface. I know a trans ally who sees me as transphobic though I love my son and have transgender friends, and appears to make no attempt to understand what I actually think. I don’t do as I’m told, so I am a bigot. That is prejudice on their part.

Have you considered the prejudice gender critical people face? Some have lost their jobs for stating biological reality. Some have lost family members for failing to be delighted enough that those family members are on a path to mutilating their bodies in a futile attempt to become something they are not.

I’m not seeing frustration. I’M frustrated, at trans males competing in women’s sports, which isn’t fair, bc they still have skeletal
and ligament advantages, and it’s totally unfair for GC people to lose their jobs bc of their beliefs or bc they use the wrong pronoun.

What I see here is wholesale denial that trans people exist, denial that they are harmless, denial that they face violence, denial of their pain and vulnerability, and that it’s not their problem if trans women have nowhere to go to the bathroom and they don’t care if trans women are safe. Two posters wrote those last two things.

Total dehumanisation of trans people is what I see here. Also a lot of fear, even though trans people are not out to get them. It’s how people have reacted to groups that are somehow different from them throughout history. Dehumanise them by denying that they exist, and then you don’t have to care about them. Posters on here want to deny them
all rights, including recognition that they even exist. I understand about the sports and self-ID and pronoun issues and am GC in those areas.

I never thought to encounter the kind of prejudice that seeks to deny their existence and deny them all rights.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 17/03/2024 22:48

Posters on here want to deny them all rights, including recognition that they even exist.

Literally everyone on this thread recognise that this group of people exist. Now who is using disingenuous hyperbole?

TathingScinsel · 17/03/2024 22:50

Of course trans people should have rights, they just can’t have rights that are specifically for other marginalised and disadvantaged groups.

Underthinker · 17/03/2024 22:52

Very common for TRAs to claim we are "denying trans people's existence", quite unusual for someone with some GC views to use that line.

If I don't believe my trans colleague is a woman am I denying his existence? Because I'm pretty sure he exists.

I don't feel that I'm dehumanising him, I just think he's a male human and not a female one.

AccidentallyWesAnderson · 17/03/2024 22:53

What I see here is wholesale denial that trans people exist

You are literally making things up. And no one can say 'all trans people are harmless'.
It's just not true.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 17/03/2024 22:54

Any chance of you acknowledging the completely false claim you made about the number of trans murders in the US, @Belichtofalicht?

literalviolence · 17/03/2024 22:55

Belichtofalicht · 17/03/2024 22:45

I’m not seeing frustration. I’M frustrated, at trans males competing in women’s sports, which isn’t fair, bc they still have skeletal
and ligament advantages, and it’s totally unfair for GC people to lose their jobs bc of their beliefs or bc they use the wrong pronoun.

What I see here is wholesale denial that trans people exist, denial that they are harmless, denial that they face violence, denial of their pain and vulnerability, and that it’s not their problem if trans women have nowhere to go to the bathroom and they don’t care if trans women are safe. Two posters wrote those last two things.

Total dehumanisation of trans people is what I see here. Also a lot of fear, even though trans people are not out to get them. It’s how people have reacted to groups that are somehow different from them throughout history. Dehumanise them by denying that they exist, and then you don’t have to care about them. Posters on here want to deny them
all rights, including recognition that they even exist. I understand about the sports and self-ID and pronoun issues and am GC in those areas.

I never thought to encounter the kind of prejudice that seeks to deny their existence and deny them all rights.

Then you're not reading posts properly
There's no denial that trans people exist. That's hyperbole. Saying someone can't change sex doesn't deny they exist..TW always have bathrooms to go to - male bathrooms. People care if TW are safe but that's not an argument for using women as a human shield despite the high cost for women. There is no right for males to access female spaces. They're beekng denied nothing except unwarranted sexist privilege. TW are as likely to be out to get women as every single other group of males. Explain what you meann by denying existence because your post is a nonsense to me and I expect most other people.

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