They / them at work

[pootlefump]

I've just written a long post and it's disappeared so in brief - how do you deal with staff who are they/them at work? I will really struggle to call a very obvious biological male 'they'. I also can't loose my job and do want to be respectful but also can't change my view on this nonsense !

What is the criteria to be a 'genuine' trans person?

Surgery? The majority of trans women retain their genitals. What else? Not committing any crimes? So Isla Bryson, Katie Delatowski aren't trans women?

Read the thread - I basically did a checklist for Alison Donut, although it was written out in a sentence and not list form.

You’ll see from the context of what I wrote that I meant genuine as in: Genuine in their intention to live peacefully as a trans woman or man, with no immoral intentions towards the sex you want to be like. I didn’t mean whether they were really genuinely trans or not. I guess you could replace “genuine” with “moral” to see what I was saying.

Use their name. I rarely use he, she talking of people. Always taught it was rude.
Alternatively you could use they for everyone and so it starts to become natural.

Didn’t your list include passing as a woman? In which case, wasn’t it basically empty?

On Friday, I was invigilating about the hundred kids in a sports hall. for some reason, I thought there were more girls than boys in the year, so decided to count them. I correctly sexed every person in the hall, from a distance, from behind, when they were all wearing identical clothing. Some were even trans and non binary. It was not a problem to correctly identify anyone’s sex, even if I only had a limited view and could only see part of a back and shoulder.

Where did Brighton come from??

But you’ve just confirmed what I said. One of the charges was transphobia

No it wasn't. The charge was simply murder, and they were both convicted of only murder. There was a sentencing uplift from the minimum life sentence as the judge considered that a secondary motivation was transphobia. The primary motive was considered to be sadism and that also counted for a sentencing uplift. Mitigating factors were their youth and their boys autism diagnosis.

Transphobia wasn't mentioned much until sentencing time in the courtroom itself, and the police, who had reviewed all the messages, didn't seem to think it was primarily a hate crime. I followed the live reporting of the case in the Liverpool Echo. Please get your facts straight.

"The boy's autism" not "their boys"

I suspect vast swathes of the public have no idea what a Hate Crime actually is, eg India Willoughby making a Indiaself look utterly bonkers for declaring a tweet a Hate Crime and reporting JK Rowling to the police. India should be charged with wasting police time.

I’m not understanding your first para: I’ve written so much and only have a really small smartphone screen. Not entirely sure what passing as a woman but not being trans means…

In your school scenario, presumably the kids who say they’re trans would not have taken a few years of hormones yet. That’s what really makes them look like their preferred sex, along with dressing like them. Hard in school uniform. With kids, who obv aren’t full grown, and haven’t had hormone treatment, it’s not surprising that you got their biological sex correct.

From April 1, appropriately enough, it will be possible to report many more "hate crimes" of this nature to the police in Scotland, where JKR lives.

Well, the Wikipedia entry is all wrong then, and you should let them know.

Read the thread - I basically did a checklist for Alison Donut, although it was written out in a sentence and not list form.

I've read it (to the detriment of my brain). Can't see any criteria for what constitutes a 'genuine' trans woman.

A moral TW would never try and use female spaces or ask to be called she in my opinion. Whose version of moral should we use?

So if you have a disabled child who needs to use single sex toilets (with the visibility safeguarding door gaps) but the school change them to mixed sex fully enclosed private cubicles, is that now a hate crime?

Well, the Wikipedia entry is all wrong then, and you should let them know.

You obviously have no idea what Wikipedia is like for bias.

A moral TW would never try and use female spaces or ask to be called she in my opinion. Whose version of moral should we use?

This. Decent male people understand that women and girls need privacy and dignity and peace of mind when they feel vulnerable or are vulnerable. The male people who don't care about that, are not nice or moral or respectful of women and girls.

The founder of Wikipedia has been trying to let Wikipedia know that the site is no longer an encyclopaedia of facts but a political battleground and if he can’t get anyone to pay attention what hope do you think a bunch of Mumsnetters have?

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/wikipedia-founder-larry-sanger-democrats-b1885138.html

There's a reason why students are told to not cite Wiki in their essays. It is notoriously unreliable and due to that it is bad academic practice to reference it.

Oestrogen does not make a post-pubertal TW look female because they've already been androgenised. That's why TW are so obviously male.

The only other trans person to have been murdered in the UK was a TW prostitute called Destiny Lauren. Destiny was murdered in 2009, by a punter who hated himself for being gay, and took out his rage and self-loathing on Destiny. Noone ever talks about Destiny Lauren, not even TRAs. She deserves to be remembered.

Naomi Hersi was murdered in similar circumstances.

There have been a few other transgender people murdered in the U.K. but not due to transphobia, just the usual, awful, tragic abuses that occur between people in dysfunctional relationships or in conjunction with other crimes.
One transwoman was murdered by another transwoman.
IIRC more transgender people have committed murder than been murdered in the U.K.

Anyone who actually gave a shit about transwomen subjected to violence would be anti sexwork, because that’s a massive factor in trans deaths globally, along with other forms of organised crime.

Interesting question, and I have a little experience in that area. When I was 18, and we are going back more than 30 years, our local council built a beautiful new leisure centre, and the changing rooms for the pool were mixed. The walls of each cubicle weren’t that high. If you stood on the bench, you could see over easily into the next cubicle. I had no ideology in my mind at all. There was no internet. No one I knew talked about these things.

I remember feeling surprised, and not 100 percent happy about it. I’d never encountered this before. All the other pools around had single-sex changing rooms.

But I carried on, as it was such a nice pool. I used the changing rooms, and it was fine. They’re still there. I don’t know if there have ever been any incidents. Mixed wouldn’t be my first choice, but after all, you’re in a cubicle and no one can actually see you, and you’re in and out. In my mind, it was less than ideal, but in reality, there was no functional difference. I saw no creepy guys hanging about.

As long as you have good cubicles, with high walls and no door gaps, I don’t think mixed facilities would be the worst thing, having experienced those pool changing rooms.

@Belichtofalicht As long as you have good cubicles, with high walls and no door gaps, I don’t think mixed facilities would be the worst thing, having experienced those pool changing rooms.

how disabilist of you. You said earlier toilets etc should have the gaps for safeguarding and medically vulnerable people.

Anyone can put anything on wikipedia.

And they do.

Anyone who actually gave a shit about transwomen subjected to violence would be anti sexwork, because that’s a massive factor in trans deaths globally

And and even more massive factor in the deaths of women and children.

As long as you have good cubicles, with high walls and no door gaps, I don’t think mixed facilities would be the worst thing, having experienced those pool changing rooms.

That's your opinion, other people disagree. I'm not sure why you imagine your anecdotes will be especially compelling? Just smacks of "I don't mind so you shouldn't either.". I don't think any males should be in womens spaces, personally. So I guess you shouldn't either.