They / them at work

[pootlefump]

I've just written a long post and it's disappeared so in brief - how do you deal with staff who are they/them at work? I will really struggle to call a very obvious biological male 'they'. I also can't loose my job and do want to be respectful but also can't change my view on this nonsense !

But according to people in here, trans women don’t and can’t exist because you can’t change sex at all.

Interesting how you can’t be trans because trans women don’t exist, yet you can still be murdered for being trans.

It's not naivety. It's very clearly deliberate.

As are the comments saying how horrible, nasty, mean and hateful it is to take issue with this, and that doing so is somehow an attack on vulnerable people.

No similar compassion for vulnerable women like me, who have been victims of serious sex offences, have been seriously traumatised by these, and who cannot help our involuntary trauma responses.

No - women like me are the aggressors. We are 'weaponising our trauma'. We can just 'be kind' and suck it up. To hell with our vulnerabilities.

You just cannot reason with bigotry and prejudice on this particularly offensive level.

Just when I think the prejudice can’t get any worse, you think that fully transitioned trans women should use the gents and risk getting beaten up or worse, because they either look like bio women or trans women.

And if you do care about their safety, they can’t go in the gents and they can’t go in the ladies either, if you had your way.

So where are they meant to go to the toilet?

Don’t tell me: Not your problem.

Off to the loo to be sick. 🤮🤮🤮🤮

320 trans people were killed in the US in 2023. How can anyone say they’re not vulnerable? And that figure doesn’t include ones who were beaten up or lost their jobs or their families, just for being trans.

The report relates to all trans murders worldwide, not just in the US. It also denotes risks including being sex worker, being black etc etc. But yes 320 is 320 too many lives lost.

In terms of vulnerability though 47,000 women were killed worldwide by intimate partners and close family members. How can anyone say women aren’t vulnerable?

I never said women aren’t vulnerable too.

No you didn’t, but you do think women should allow men into their safe spaces thereby increasing their vulnerability still further.

I fully support third spaces for anyone who for whatever reason doesn’t want to use toilets etc assigned to their sex. But that of course wouldn’t affirm those who want to be in women’s spaces.

I don’t need to increase my vulnerability to accommodate another person feeling vulnerable.

@SerafinasGoose That’s not true at all! I’m deeply, deeply sorry for the trauma you’ve experienced, and I completely get that you would freak out about being in a toilet or other confined space with a man.

I do think that you wouldn’t even know, if you were sharing a space with a fully transitioned trans woman. Others here disagree, and maybe I’m wrong. It’s only that the regular trans women I’ve seen (ie not the showy ones like Dylan Mulwotsit or the drag-type ones) look just like bio women.

If you did know, despite a full transition, yes, that would be horrible for you. I am sorry for that and wish you never had to feel that way. I hope the perpetrator is either in prison or had his balls removed.

We need a perfect solution.

Even paediatric transition does not result in biological males who look like biological females when they are standing next to biological females.

’Passing’ on the Internet is irrelevant when it comes to female single sex spaces.

Ellen DeGeneres is 5’7”, according to Google, so is 3 inches taller than the average woman in the U.K./US.

That’s Nicki Jager, six two according to the internet. I think the photo makes it look more.

I enjoyed her makeup tutorials for years and had no idea she was trans until she came out. No one did. I wouldn’t have known by her height, either. She’s Dutch, after all.

Her Power of Makeup tutorial is very popular.

I am a university lecturer and the male students who say they are women do not pass as women in the slightest. I somehow doubt there are loads of other transwomen who really look like women, it seems a bit unlikely somehow.

I had to inform a colleague that a client had arrived for their meeting and the client had asked me to let my colleague know they had all the documentation. Client is trans, visually an obvious male but goes by 'she' and I accidentally said something along the lines of 'your client is here and he told me to let you know he has all the documents'. Then genuinely felt awful for weeks as there were other people around, then felt stupid for feeling awful for calling a man 'he'. Your eyes see and you speak. I'm trying to just call everyone 'they' now but it's not going well.

Do we have an emotional hyperbole scale in FWR? I think we might need one 😆

Nicki is a good example of a nice normal trans woman who wouldn’t dream of hurting anyone.

It may not define you, but sex is absolutely critical in describing how and why one half of the world is treated like shit and the other isn't.

Pretending that this is all a matter of personal choice - like it's women's fault that they are treated like shit, because they should have used non-gendered pronouns - is a deeply regressive act.

The fact that you think you are being deeply progressive is the most exasperating thing of all.

🤣🤣🤣 fuck me.

Have they completed their transition? Taken hormones for a few years, maybe had surgery? As uni students, I doubt it.

Without a few years of hormone treatment, of course they look like men.

25 years ago, the NHS used to require that someone live as the opposite sex for two years before getting treatment.

Why? I’ve “known” Nicki for her make-up tutorials for a few years now - they are AMAZING - and she had a following of millions because of them. No one had any idea she was trans. I’ve always “known” her as a woman and that’s how I think of her still.

Just from my experience the difference is you can't tell the difference. I know a trans girl who has always been a girl in a boys body. Growing up that child was never a boy and would tell you so. Always been a girl from when she could talk and she knew she was a girl, was very distraught that people would call her a male name and say 'he'. She is a trans girl and to look at her as a late teen now you wouldn't have any idea whatsoever. Seeing her in the womans toilets or changing room I would bet on my own child's life that you'd never guess in a million years.

Thank God. Someone talking sense at last.

And what about Brianna Ghey? She looked like a very pretty girl. I would never have known she was trans.

Someone upthread questioned if anyone has been murdered for being trans. Well, look up Brianna Ghey for the answer.

Brianna was murdered and was trans. Brianna wasn't murdered for being trans, and certainly wasn't murdered for being in a male toilet.

I believe statistically in the UK trans people are murdered less than most other demographics.

She was murdered for being trans. The perps were messaging about her having a c”ck.

Of course the stats would show fewer murders of trans people. They’re a small group.

There’s no way those two would have set about her if she hadn’t been trans.

What about the boy they chose first who didn't turn up? Was he trans? Those fuckers clearly would have murdered anyone.

Well, transphobia was one of the charges against the murderers, so it’s officially a hate crime.

@Belichtofalicht who are the most vulnerable in toilets? It’s not trans people using the correct toilet for their sex (their birth sex to prevent confusion to you). It is anyone who is having a medical emergency through illness or drug misuse or those being assaulted.

I have saved the life of someone who collapsed in a public toilet. They had collapsed behind the toilet door but when the toilet doors have gaps at the bottom you can see if someone has collapsed or is in trouble and how many people are in the cubicle.

Because of gender ideology, there are now more mixed sexed toilets with doors down to the floor and up to the ceiling (so you can’t get over them). These mixed sex toilets with full height doors are being looked at as a preferred option by the government in mixed and ‘single sex’ blocks because of this ideology. Mixed sex toilets by law have to be ‘fully enclosed’ already.

Everyone is at risk of being ill and collapsing in a public toilet. Epilepsy, head injury, stroke, heart attack, hypo, etc etc.
Everyone is more at risk of being pushed in to a private cubicle - the crime can’t be witnessed. This is borne out if you look at the number of assaults and rapes that take place in disabled toilets in this country.

If you think that the most vulnerable people are trans people going to the toilet of their sex, you are mistaken. But this ideology is leading to everyone being more vulnerable at moments of crisis. And disabled and traumatised people that use single sexed toilets and rely on a degree of visibility for being safe are most vulnerable.

This is the reality that the most vulnerable are having to deal with.