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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

They / them at work

1000 replies

pootlefump · 14/03/2024 18:59

I've just written a long post and it's disappeared so in brief - how do you deal with staff who are they/them at work? I will really struggle to call a very obvious biological male 'they'. I also can't loose my job and do want to be respectful but also can't change my view on this nonsense !

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RethinkingLife · 16/03/2024 12:50

I don’t think that anyone on here has read the stories of people who have successfully and happily transitioned. Do some research

Mistaken assumptions on that scale extend beyond laughable into an inappropriate set of assertions about your intended audience.

I suggest that you should conduct your own research. Maybe you might begin to reach the level of knowledge and awareness that many of the posters here had 10 or more years ago. I'd say their knowledge has grown by dialogue, interaction, challenging and the exchange of evidence.

You might also offer something of value when you have more than Lifton's thought-terminating clichés available to you. If you're willing to exchange more than assertions and platitudes, you might learn a lot.

Something has gone wrong with the flow of information. It’s not just that different people are drawing subtly different conclusions from the same evidence. It seems like different intellectual communities no longer share basic foundational beliefs. Maybe nobody cares about the truth anymore, as some have started to worry. Maybe political allegiance has replaced basic reasoning skills. Maybe we’ve all become trapped in echo chambers of our own making – wrapping ourselves in an intellectually impenetrable layer of likeminded friends and web pages and social media feeds.

But there are two very different phenomena at play here, each of which subvert the flow of information in very distinct ways. Let’s call them echo chambers and epistemic bubbles. Both are social structures that systematically exclude sources of information. Both exaggerate their members’ confidence in their beliefs. But they work in entirely different ways, and they require very different modes of intervention. An epistemic bubble is when you don’t hear people from the other side. An echo chamber is what happens when you don’t trust people from the other side.

Current usage has blurred this crucial distinction, so let me introduce a somewhat artificial taxonomy. An ‘epistemic bubble’ is an informational network from which relevant voices have been excluded by omission. That omission might be purposeful: we might be selectively avoiding contact with contrary views because, say, they make us uncomfortable…

An ‘echo chamber’ is a social structure from which other relevant voices have been actively discredited. Where an epistemic bubble merely omits contrary views, an echo chamber brings its members to actively distrust outsiders.

https://aeon.co/essays/why-its-as-hard-to-escape-an-echo-chamber-as-it-is-to-flee-a-cult

<p><em>Photo by Jim Young/Reuters</em></p>

Why it’s as hard to escape an echo chamber as it is to flee a cult | Aeon Essays

First you don’t hear other views. Then you can’t trust them. Your personal information network entraps you just like a cult

https://aeon.co/essays/why-its-as-hard-to-escape-an-echo-chamber-as-it-is-to-flee-a-cult

EmpressaurusOfTheScathingTinsel · 16/03/2024 12:51

Belichtofalicht · 16/03/2024 12:48

What’s a TRA? God, the amount of acronyms in the internet drives me mad. I’m pretty internet-lingo literate, but it’s just endless.

I googled it, and found TRA as in tradwife, but that doesn’t seem to fit the context.

Trans rights activist.

Belichtofalicht · 16/03/2024 12:52

EmpressaurusOfTheScathingTinsel · 16/03/2024 12:39

The reason I’m irritated by your constantly lumping LGB people & trans people together is that despite all the bollocks about LGBTQIA+++, sexual orientation and gender identity are completely different things.

LGB people are attracted to members of their own sex. Trans people believe that gender identity is more important than sex. Many lesbian groups have had to go underground to stop themselves being bombarded by transwomen who want to join them because of this belief.

I’m a lesbian. That does not mean I want people to use special language for me or that I want to invade spaces that belong to the opposite sex. It doesn’t mean I want drugs or surgery to change my body. And I don’t expect people to subscribe to a belief system.

Do you see why I find it offensive when you conflate us?

I understand the principle of what you’re saying, yes. But I don’t feel I was conflating trans and gay people at all. They’re not conflated m my head, I assure you.

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 16/03/2024 12:56

CeruleanSal · 15/03/2024 09:35

You might not believe it but for some people it’s their reality.

You can’t just be a little uncomfortable for a few seconds at work and say a different word so someone else is happier? The number of things I say or smile and nod my head to at work to keep the peace is countless, even if I privately disagree!

Try being (as a thought experiment) a parent of a transgender son (that is, a man who thinks he is in some undefined sense a woman), who demands that you call him “she”. The cognitive dissonance is crippling; every sentence referring to him gets painfully sidetracked into the distress of your whole previous, and indeed present and future, relationship with your son being denied. You lose track of what you were trying to say.

Add to that the threat of him “going no contact”. This is usually an implied threat, but it is real. You have done your best for your son throughout his life. You have loved him since you witnessed his birth, or since you gave birth to him (in which case your relationship goes back even further). Now he is telling you that all that relationship was untrue, because he is really a woman, but you know that that is only his view based on his view of “herself”. He can deny the reality of his sex, but he is trying to force you to do this too.

Now call him “she” and “her”. This is a cruel demand of the trans ideologues who impose their worldview on everyone else.

For me, it is easier to call someone by the wrong sex pronouns, or to use “they”, if I am not close to them. But this reinforces the expectation that all of us must do as we are told, rather than have the freedom to use language instinctively as it has been used for the bulk of our lives. It becomes cruel when it is enforced. Actually none of us has a right to impose on anyone else how that person has to see us and relate to us. No healthy relationship is based on such imposition. All healthy relationships are based on how the participants see each other, not on how the participants wish each other to see them.

When you demand that people ignore their perceptions, the evidence of their eyes, you coerce them into lying, or at best pretence. I have no right to demand that you pretend to see me in any particular way. You, if you met me, would no doubt see an old man. That is reality. If I would prefer you to see me as a younger woman, is that not ridiculous? Why should you have to deny the reality you see to pander to my feelings or wishes? The usual answer is that you should just be kind. But that, as I have tried to show, has consequences - the well known ones that adversely affect women (when I claim that I am actually a woman, so have a right to enter your changing room), and the less visible ones, like the effect on my wife who doesn’t deserve to be gaslit.

Belichtofalicht · 16/03/2024 12:57

literalviolence · 16/03/2024 12:19

Most people believe that. You're in the norm there. But saying someone should be able to live without prejudice doesn't justify males in women spaces, or males pretending to be women or males saying they know what women feel like. It makes no difference to me whether a male is genuine trans or not when they dismantle my protections and invade my spaces. A male is a male. I don't have this gender identity thing so have nothing in common with them and we don't share a body type.

Well, I guess that’s where we differ. I DO believe that there are genuine trans people who really feel that they are trapped in the wrong body, who transition and feel right for the first time, who are much happier after, who look just like biological women, and who have about as much interest in filming you in the changing room as any other straight woman. Ie zero interest.

If you believe ALL trans women are the same as bio males, then yes, I can see how you would be upset about them being in women’s spaces. I definitely don’t believe that people should be able to just self-ID as the opposite sex and then get access to anywhere.

AlisonDonut · 16/03/2024 13:01

Well, I guess that’s where we differ. I DO believe that there are genuine trans people who really feel that they are trapped in the wrong body, who transition and feel right for the first time, who are much happier after, who look just like biological women, and who have about as much interest in filming you in the changing room as any other straight woman. Ie zero interest.

I'm just wondering what this checklist is that you seem to have to work out which are the true trans and which are not.

All of them are not women, so there must be a way of you working out which ones are just lying and which ones are faking it.

Belichtofalicht · 16/03/2024 13:02

literalviolence · 16/03/2024 12:24

No there isn't. At best there is evidence that some of what we thought were female traits or biology are also male traits. That's not evidence that people are trans. That's evidence that we've drawn wrong conclusions about what to expect from someone with a specific biological make up.

There are studies indicating a possible biological basis for being trans. Look it up. I’m done citing sources. It’s all out there if you care to look.

AlisonDonut · 16/03/2024 13:03

Belichtofalicht · 16/03/2024 13:02

There are studies indicating a possible biological basis for being trans. Look it up. I’m done citing sources. It’s all out there if you care to look.

No, there really is not.

If you are going to come and insist on us letting some men in but not others, then either bring your evidence, your checklist, or something that is useable in general every day life.

Belichtofalicht · 16/03/2024 13:04

AlisonDonut · 16/03/2024 13:01

Well, I guess that’s where we differ. I DO believe that there are genuine trans people who really feel that they are trapped in the wrong body, who transition and feel right for the first time, who are much happier after, who look just like biological women, and who have about as much interest in filming you in the changing room as any other straight woman. Ie zero interest.

I'm just wondering what this checklist is that you seem to have to work out which are the true trans and which are not.

All of them are not women, so there must be a way of you working out which ones are just lying and which ones are faking it.

Ever heard the expression of it looks like a duck and walks like a duck? That’s the short way of saying what I wrote in the bolded.

Belichtofalicht · 16/03/2024 13:05

AlisonDonut · 16/03/2024 13:03

No, there really is not.

If you are going to come and insist on us letting some men in but not others, then either bring your evidence, your checklist, or something that is useable in general every day life.

No. I am not writing a dissertation. You can easily look up for yourself the evidence of what I’m saying.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 16/03/2024 13:05

This is what happens when we're instructed to use incorrect pronouns for the two sexes. Numerous paediophiles / sex offenders get to gaslight the children they allegedly flash at or threaten to rape - enabled by the courts and the media.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5029478-not-our-crimes-again

Not our crimes again | Mumsnet

Another woman collecting child sex abuse images, fantasising about children and 'exposing her penis'. Although to be fair they were cleared of the las...

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5029478-not-our-crimes-again

AlisonDonut · 16/03/2024 13:06

Belichtofalicht · 16/03/2024 13:04

Ever heard the expression of it looks like a duck and walks like a duck? That’s the short way of saying what I wrote in the bolded.

So a man who you decide passes is allowed into all our spaces?

Do you look at the height, hips, foot size, adams apple, baldness etc? Or is a pretty enough dress the deciding factor?

Come on, give us something to use. What is your checklist?

Belichtofalicht · 16/03/2024 13:06

@AlisonDonut If you want a checklist, it’s clearly written in the para of mine you bolded.

AlisonDonut · 16/03/2024 13:06

Belichtofalicht · 16/03/2024 13:05

No. I am not writing a dissertation. You can easily look up for yourself the evidence of what I’m saying.

Obviously you won't - because there is zero evidence. It's just all on their say so.

Belichtofalicht · 16/03/2024 13:06

AlisonDonut · 16/03/2024 13:06

So a man who you decide passes is allowed into all our spaces?

Do you look at the height, hips, foot size, adams apple, baldness etc? Or is a pretty enough dress the deciding factor?

Come on, give us something to use. What is your checklist?

You’re being extremely silly now.

literalviolence · 16/03/2024 13:07

Belichtofalicht · 16/03/2024 13:05

No. I am not writing a dissertation. You can easily look up for yourself the evidence of what I’m saying.

I've found nothing good quality and convincing but even if there were thebsocial construction of masculinity is what needs to change. Trans is one way of interpreting a psychological discomfort. We could choose to do it in different ways so that the discomfort is not there but people also don't need to pretend to be something they're not.

AlisonDonut · 16/03/2024 13:07

Belichtofalicht · 16/03/2024 13:06

@AlisonDonut If you want a checklist, it’s clearly written in the para of mine you bolded.

So a happy man with a dress and a smile on his face?

You ever heard of Duper's Delight? I think that is the look you are describing.

AlisonDonut · 16/03/2024 13:08

Belichtofalicht · 16/03/2024 13:06

You’re being extremely silly now.

Oh yes, it's me that is being silly.

You are the one getting conned love.

Belichtofalicht · 16/03/2024 13:08

AlisonDonut · 16/03/2024 13:06

Obviously you won't - because there is zero evidence. It's just all on their say so.

Anybody who wants some evidence towards anything I’m saying can look it up. I’m not doing the work for you.

literalviolence · 16/03/2024 13:09

Belichtofalicht · 16/03/2024 13:04

Ever heard the expression of it looks like a duck and walks like a duck? That’s the short way of saying what I wrote in the bolded.

Right so cos no male quacks like a woman as it were, none of them are women. I don't mean in the superficial hair style sense I mean a functioning female body.

Belichtofalicht · 16/03/2024 13:11

AlisonDonut · 16/03/2024 13:08

Oh yes, it's me that is being silly.

You are the one getting conned love.

Well, maybe I am being conned. My opinions are just opinions formed via reading and listening. They make sense to me, based on what I read and hear. I’m not 100 percent sure I’m right. But others here seem totally entrenched in their prejudices.

Belichtofalicht · 16/03/2024 13:14

literalviolence · 16/03/2024 13:09

Right so cos no male quacks like a woman as it were, none of them are women. I don't mean in the superficial hair style sense I mean a functioning female body.

No, of course trans women don’t have the body of a biological woman. From listening to what they have to say - and not chancers like Lia T or show people like Dylan M, but regular trans people - they are female in their minds, hearts, and souls, if not in their bodies. Apparently they feel as wrong in their bodies as if you or I would feel in a male body. Don’t you think that that must be a horrible way to feel? And maybe you’re right, and none of it’s genuine. But…what if you’re wrong? What if being trans is real, and everyone’s horrible to them?

Belichtofalicht · 16/03/2024 13:16

literalviolence · 16/03/2024 13:07

I've found nothing good quality and convincing but even if there were thebsocial construction of masculinity is what needs to change. Trans is one way of interpreting a psychological discomfort. We could choose to do it in different ways so that the discomfort is not there but people also don't need to pretend to be something they're not.

That’s an interesting viewpoint.

RainWithSunnySpells · 16/03/2024 13:18

Belichtofalicht said:
'If you believe ALL trans women are the same as bio males...'

It's nothing to do with belief. It is to do with material reality. Mammals connot change sex. Human beings are mammals. This is just a fact. I know that some people do not want it to be true, but wishing doesn't make it so.

RainWithSunnySpells · 16/03/2024 13:26

Belichtofalicht said:
'Apparently they feel as wrong in their bodies as if you or I would feel in a male body.'

That's just not true for myself. If I woke up after a long sleep - a kind of 'Orlando' situation - and had a body of the opposite sex, I wouldn't alter that body with surgery or cross-sex hormones. I would accept that I was now the new sex. I don't have 'gender identity' so (bar the fact that I would be very surprised) I would just get on with it.

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