They / them at work

[pootlefump]

I've just written a long post and it's disappeared so in brief - how do you deal with staff who are they/them at work? I will really struggle to call a very obvious biological male 'they'. I also can't loose my job and do want to be respectful but also can't change my view on this nonsense !

I can absolutely understand those that keep their distance. It’s that instinct for self preservation kicking in.
If OP ever says or does anything that shows they are gender critical and one day accidentally misgenders the colleague then OP isn’t going to get the benefit of doubt and people will likely think it intentional.
Many people cannot afford to be out of work and have their reputation tarnished. The chances of misgendering are high because our brain sees sex not other peoples perceptions of themselves and many of us have busy lives or times of very high stress etc.

The people who regret the damage done to their body do deserve protecting.

I think they're true in the sense that people can genuinely believe they're somehow meant to be the opposite sex but it's not true in any other sense.

I’m just a happy-clappy type of person who believes that some people are trans and deserve to live without prejudice.

That doesn’t take away from the fact that some are not genuine and are pretending to be trans for nefarious means, like filming women in changing rooms, or that it’s desperately unfair for biological males to compete in women’s sports. That’s just common sense!

I think I have a balanced view. Shocker!!

Well there's no way of knowing who's true trans and not then? some genuine trans people will still offend so offending per se doesn't tell us and we can't read minds. Is EI genuine trans for example or just using the idea to bolster a flagging career? how could we know for sure.

Absolutely. The extremists have ruined any chance of trans people getting the respect and protection they deserve, with their totally unreasonable demands, like access to changing rooms via mere self-identification, competing in women’s sports when they have so much physical advantage, and going absolutely mad when they are “misgendered.” The sacking of Maya Forster was a complete disgrace. She deserved the basic respect of being able to hold her opinion and not lose her livelihood.

Extremists ruin everything. They act as if women don’t have rights too.

Most people believe that. You're in the norm there. But saying someone should be able to live without prejudice doesn't justify males in women spaces, or males pretending to be women or males saying they know what women feel like. It makes no difference to me whether a male is genuine trans or not when they dismantle my protections and invade my spaces. A male is a male. I don't have this gender identity thing so have nothing in common with them and we don't share a body type.

But it might be true in the biological sense. There’s quite a lot of evidence that that might be the case.

No there isn't. At best there is evidence that some of what we thought were female traits or biology are also male traits. That's not evidence that people are trans. That's evidence that we've drawn wrong conclusions about what to expect from someone with a specific biological make up.

What is "true in a biological sense"??

The brains in male bodies are male. Doesn't matter whether some of them develop unusually and have aspects which are (apparently) more like the overall average for women than for men, on a population level. We know that brains are mosaics and aren't on a spectrum from male to female. Some features are slightly more likely to be seen in women than men, across a whole population. Brains are not individually categorised from most male to most female. What relevance is it to women that some men feel and believe (without any actual evidence) that their brain structure shows features that are slightly more common in women?

What is 'genuinely trans'?

Is there a checklist for that?

Belichtofalicht said:
'... a trans woman who had taken all the hormones and looked just like a biological woman (as most do after transitioning)...'

Oh dear. I must have been really unlucky with the TW I have met and also seen IRL, because without the filters, I would say that that is not the case.

I don’t know who El is. Just googled and it’s a Hebrew god??

If someone transitions and then lives happily ever after, as most do, then the proof is in the pudding.

There’s no “proof” that someone who says they’re gay is actually gay, either. So if you don’t believe trans people, you must logically also not believe gay people who say they’re gay, either.

Gosh I missed that. There may be TW who actually look like women but there's certainly loads who look nothing like it. EI, Lia Thomas, Isla Bryson, Dylan whathisname to name a few obvious male TW. I see TW all the time and it's really obvious.

There are trans people who are appalled at the trans extremists and their unreasonableness, by the way.

Who is this El? I googled it and it’s a Hebrew god, I googled El trans and someone playing a trans person called Elle in a TV show came up. I can’t find who El is.

I’m sure there are - it’s hard not be be appalled by the TRAs - but they’re keeping very quiet about that. If you know them please tell them to start standing up for women and remind them to keep out of our spaces at all times.

The prejudice is wild. I too am glad I’m not a trans person having to deal with this, and fear for anyone who is.
And yes of course happily transitioned people exist. I have an acquaintance who fully transitioned after having known from a very young age (I think she said about 5?!) how she felt and being committed to it her whole life. She is a beautiful happy woman who has a great job and lives a wonderful life. and I don’t think I would have known her past to look at her if she hadn’t told me at all.
I know it can go the other way. I’ve worked with young people who I think were genuinely confused and it seemed like the right solution to their problems. But what they need is support (ie to be listened to, counselling etc) to work through these things to see if they really are trans or non binary and want to live like that, not eye rolls and micro aggressions and anger.
Most trans and non binary people are not professional athletes or prisoners etc. That’s a different argument. OP was talking about a day to day situation where someone was seemingly just asking to be treated with dignity.

The reason I’m irritated by your constantly lumping LGB people & trans people together is that despite all the bollocks about LGBTQIA+++, sexual orientation and gender identity are completely different things.

LGB people are attracted to members of their own sex. Trans people believe that gender identity is more important than sex. Many lesbian groups have had to go underground to stop themselves being bombarded by transwomen who want to join them because of this belief.

I’m a lesbian. That does not mean I want people to use special language for me or that I want to invade spaces that belong to the opposite sex. It doesn’t mean I want drugs or surgery to change my body. And I don’t expect people to subscribe to a belief system.

Do you see why I find it offensive when you conflate us?

I don’t think that anyone on here has read the stories of people who have successfully and happily transitioned. Do some research; you’ll find articles about it, along with photos of people before and after, who look just like biological women. You’d never know.

I don’t know who all the people you mentioned are - I’m British but have lived abroad for twenty years, currently in Britain for a few months - but I suspect they’re public figures/show people, and we all know that they can have publicity motives. I know Lia T and Dylan wotsit. I am sure that Lia just wanted some medals, and Dylan is clearly a wannabe star. I don’t know who the other two are. But I don’t think that publicity-hungry celebrity types are representative of regular trans folk.

Eddie izzard

Then Lia can get his medals in the appropriate category.

You seem very naive here - regular trans folk expect exactly the same rights to access spaces they don’t belong in as other trans people you describe as publicity hungry. What they do for a living is irrelevant.

Everyone who faces prejudice and discrimination deserves to be protected from it.

Excellent - you acknowledge that. Now, how do you propose to protect women and girls from the discrimination they face as a result of the trans movement?

What’s a TRA? God, the amount of acronyms in the internet drives me mad. I’m pretty internet-lingo literate, but it’s just endless.

I googled it, and found TRA as in tradwife, but that doesn’t seem to fit the context.