JKR vs IW

[ZeldaFighter]

Are we going to talk about this? I think JKR was feeling a bit grumpy today 😀

https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/books/news/jk-rowling-india-willoughby-twitter-gender-b2507309.html

I am a bit worried that "naice" people will think JKR is being horrid.

But no, it is you who have failed to appreciate the salient points.

One good thing to come out of this incident is that more people are being made aware of NCHI recording and how ludicrous and frightening it is.

Arrrgh. The first link should have been this one -

https://www.theyworkforyou.com/sp/?id=2022-12-21.3.0

What they “should” be finding depends very much on WHAT is being measured under the category of women’s equality and wellbeing.

Trans access to women’s single sex spaces, support schemes etc is unlikely to have ANY effect on women’s pay, maternity rights and so on.

But what needs to be captured is the gradual erosion of women’s place in sports, women’s ability to self-organise without biological males present, or the discomfort in having to use mixed sex changing rooms and toilets. Making the world a bit crappier and more stressful for women in these areas is unlikely to be measured or captured in the usual “key indicators” for women’s equality.

And you were certainly implying some sort of causation by linking the two things in the first place. Or why point out the apparent correlation?

There's now a thread for the report here so all the discussion can be in one place instead of across multiple threads: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5024934-global-gender-gap-report-2023?reply=133634595

perhaps copy the posts over?

Nowhere am I claiming causation, I don't need to.The GC argument on the other hand needs to show that self-ID is detrimental to women.

"I don't have to justify or prove anything I say, but everyone who disagrees with me does."

As I mentioned it is also about the ‘gap’. It is not a declaration that the country is doing ‘well’ by the women. Considering the mortality in childbirth figures as well.

It shows that the ‘values’ are actually nonsensical. And certainly not showing what the poster desperately wants it to be.

Agreed with your version NPC.

Chesterton's Fence.

When we seek to intervene in any system created by someone, it’s not enough to view their decisions and choices simply as the consequences of first-order thinking because we can inadvertently create serious problems. Before changing anything, we should wonder whether they were using second-order thinking. Their reasons for making certain choices might be more complex than they seem at first. It’s best to assume they knew things we don’t or had experience we can’t fathom, so we don’t go for quick fixes and end up making things worse.
Second-order thinking is the practice of not just considering the consequences of our decisions but also the consequences of those consequences. Everyone can manage first-order thinking, which is just considering the immediate anticipated result of an action. It’s simple and quick, usually requiring little effort. By comparison, second-order thinking is more complex and time-consuming. The fact that it is difficult and unusual is what makes the ability to do it such a powerful advantage

https://fs.blog/chestertons-fence/

Eh up she's logged on again

First time in my life I've ever read that useful Housman quotation.

Yet again, thank you, JKR. 😍

Quite. And whatever issues affect trans women, it’s not the job of actual women* to fix those issues.

(*Adult human females)

😘

Rachel Rooney's response. I cant stop laughing.

“…and in his anger he stamped with his right foot so hard that it went into the ground above his knee; then he seized his left foot with both his hands in such a fury that he split in two, and there was an end of him.”

Police been useless. They don't want the headache of dealing with the Home
Secretary, Daily Mail etc so are ducking it.

Or it could be that the police aren’t able to charge someone with a crime, if no actual crime has been committed.

Ouch!

Exactly. This spurious correlation between two unconnected claims is puzzling and just so nonsensical. Always some sort of gotcha that just really isn’t there.

https://twitter.com/ripx4nutmeg/status/1766411838466474227

Except this is not the case.

You would not get the same tight correlation for pet well-being against trans person well-being in an international cross-country comparison analysis that you would get for women's well-being & trans peoples well-being correlational analysis.

If you think you have this (you do not) go ahead and post your figures.

Why Willoughby can't just live Willoughby's truth and leave us out of it, I don't know.

India won’t be happy until India has full control of everyone. Their thoughts, beliefs, speech and behaviour. Unless everyone goes along with exactly what India wants them to, the rage will continue. It’s sad, really, in many ways.

Because that truth requires everyone else to go along with it. People often compare it to being gay, but it's not comparable. Being gay is nothing to do with anyone else; if everyone at work turned gay tomorrow, you would never know unless they told you and it wouldn't require anything from you. It's nothing to do with anyone except themselves and their partners. It requires no reflection or validation from anyone else. It's an innate truth.

IW's truth, though, requires reflection and validation from everyone who meets or even mentions IW. It's not an innate truth like being gay (because it's not a truth at all). Some people may genuinely believe IW to be a woman (well they don't, but they'll never admit it), some might be on board with the truth but happy to deny it to be polite, but some people don't want to pretend and they aren't obliged to - and that's what's happened here.

JKR doesn't misgender people as a matter of course, but IW forced her to the discourtesy, as I believe the phrase goes. And at the end of the day, the right to tell the objective truth and not be compelled to lie must win out over IW's need for constant validation and submission from literally everyone else, which is where IW's "truth" lives.