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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
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9
Treaclemine · 07/03/2024 19:48

Dadjoke clearly thinks his thought outweighs all the men and women of science who hold that men are men and women are women and immutably so, and he doesn't need any evidence to support his thoughts.
How can he explain this? I may think he is an ignorant idiot, and not offer any evidence, but then he does, so I don't need to.
But he does, and doesn't.
And the Moon is made of green cheese and there are fairies at the bottom of my garden.

Froodwithatowel · 07/03/2024 19:49

DadJoke · 07/03/2024 18:58

@negeme you think the category “woman” excludes trans woman. I do not. This usually does not matter. When you use the word “woman” I know you are excluding trans women by default. When I say “woman” you know I am including trans women by default.

If we are to discuss transgender issues we have to understand these differences. It’s not remotely as complicated as you are making out.

The forbidden term “cisgender” makes the whole thing much more complicated.

This is still nothing more than a very longwinded and tedious way to say that you think nice women should do what men tell them.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 07/03/2024 19:55

Not really bothered about being thought of as "nice" by men like Dadjoke 🤷‍♀️

domineastronomy · 07/03/2024 19:58

I don't know why we waste our time and energy engaging with these men.
If we refuse to do so surely they'll go away..

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 07/03/2024 20:00

I'm still waiting for someone to explain why uniquely amongst all species humans can't have words that mean adult female and adult male of that species. Reproductive roles matter.

Saying this doesn't, of course, mean that women and girls are nothing but walking wombs, or that a woman who hasn't had children, or can't have them, is not a real woman, or any of the other nonsense that TRAs and shallow thinkers tend to come out with at this point.

It means that females have bodies organised from conception on around having large gametes, i.e. eggs, a reproductive system capable of gestating a baby and then feeding it with the mother's own milk. I've bolded 'organised' because all we're talking about here is biology and the way our bodies develop and work, not any predestined role (now that in our country at least most women are able to control their fertility if they want to).

Emotionalsupportviper · 07/03/2024 20:01

domineastronomy · 07/03/2024 19:58

I don't know why we waste our time and energy engaging with these men.
If we refuse to do so surely they'll go away..

I've often thought that (but admit I'm one of the worst offenders for responding)/

Username947531 · 07/03/2024 20:05

winterplumage · 07/03/2024 19:28

I don't know, but I've been swimming regularly there for 25 years and had no idea about the vote, so I don't think it could have been well-publicised among us.

It was members of the Kenwood Ladies Pond Associatiion who attended the AGM in person. So not all pond swimmers and not all KLPA members, only those who turned up to the AGM. All members of the KLPA were told about the AGM.

Emotionalsupportviper · 07/03/2024 20:07

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 07/03/2024 20:00

I'm still waiting for someone to explain why uniquely amongst all species humans can't have words that mean adult female and adult male of that species. Reproductive roles matter.

Saying this doesn't, of course, mean that women and girls are nothing but walking wombs, or that a woman who hasn't had children, or can't have them, is not a real woman, or any of the other nonsense that TRAs and shallow thinkers tend to come out with at this point.

It means that females have bodies organised from conception on around having large gametes, i.e. eggs, a reproductive system capable of gestating a baby and then feeding it with the mother's own milk. I've bolded 'organised' because all we're talking about here is biology and the way our bodies develop and work, not any predestined role (now that in our country at least most women are able to control their fertility if they want to).

Absolutely.

Women may or may not be able to become pregnant, carry to term, have a live birth, breastfeed - but we have the potential to do so.

Men don't.

AllProperTeaIsTheft · 07/03/2024 20:18

@negeme I think trans women are women, and won’t refer to them as men.

Why though? Is your definition of a category of person 'Anyone who says they are in that category'? If I say I am 5 years old, does that mean I am? If I say I am Chinese, does that mean I am? If I say I am 6'3", does that mean I am? Why is the question of whether I am male/female any different? You have apparently decided that male/female is no longer a binary based on the fact of physical sex. So what's stopping people deciding that age is no longer based on a person's actual factual age? Can you not see how ridiculous this is?

winterplumage · 07/03/2024 20:23

HelenHywater · 07/03/2024 10:09

I know some of the women who use the pool and who attended the AGM. We talked about this recently and these women (who I would have assumed are completely feminist) see no problem with trans people using the pool. They have no worries about these poor, confused transwomen using the pool, because in their words "they are born in the wrong body". They are full of the Be Kind bullshit.

I am shocked that this is still the prevalent view among women.

It's the prevalent view because, unfortunately, the mainstream view has always ignored science and pretended there are unfathomable, mystical essences of masculinity and femininity, possibly located in the brain, and that therefore a "female" can exist in a male body and vice versa.

SirChenjins · 07/03/2024 20:28

@AllProperTeaIsTheft excellent questions which are often asked on here and which I’ve yet to see answered by DadJoke or the others who share his belief system.

DadJoke · 07/03/2024 20:37

Emotionalsupportviper · 07/03/2024 19:26

No it doesn't.

"Woman" and "transwoman" is perfectly clear. We all know exactly what is being talked about.

No. Trans woman implies trans women are a subset of women. TranswomN does not. I wouldn’t say blackwoman.

Froodwithatowel · 07/03/2024 20:40

Is the hope that if it's repeated long enough that the reality will be created where women here will eventually agree that men are women if they say so?

Because it obviously isn't going to happen, is it?

SirChenjins · 07/03/2024 20:42

@DadJoke No, it is made explicit that men are not women and that the former cannot (for very obvious reasons) be a subset of the latter.

Emotionalsupportviper · 07/03/2024 20:44

DadJoke · 07/03/2024 20:37

No. Trans woman implies trans women are a subset of women. TranswomN does not. I wouldn’t say blackwoman.

Yes- it does imply that they are a subset of women - but they aren't.

Don't give up the day job.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 07/03/2024 20:46

JK Rowling has a message for Dadjoke and all men like him Wine

"This is nonsense. 99.9% of the world knows it's nonsense. The emperor is naked. He might be wearing lipstick, but his balls are swinging in plain sight."

x.com/jk_rowling/status/1765822003246768198?s=46&t=SPorwN-mokktL467rcZ57g

ScrollingLeaves · 07/03/2024 20:49

DadJoke · 07/03/2024 20:37

No. Trans woman implies trans women are a subset of women. TranswomN does not. I wouldn’t say blackwoman.

The point is that transwomen are not a subset of women.

But in ‘trans women’, the adjective ‘trans’ to the noun ‘women’ wrongly makes it seem as though they are.

Transwomen are a subset of men.

It is all confusing. I am sure a lot of people can’t make head or tail of it. I had to get an explanation here and memorise the answer. You sort of have to reverse what your brain assumes.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 07/03/2024 20:50

Because it obviously isn't going to happen, is it?

It's just making us have to spell it out more bluntly @Froodwithatowel

Men cannot be women and no one is going to make me pretend that they are.

Look at JKR go.

DadJoke · 07/03/2024 20:55

ScrollingLeaves · 07/03/2024 20:49

The point is that transwomen are not a subset of women.

But in ‘trans women’, the adjective ‘trans’ to the noun ‘women’ wrongly makes it seem as though they are.

Transwomen are a subset of men.

It is all confusing. I am sure a lot of people can’t make head or tail of it. I had to get an explanation here and memorise the answer. You sort of have to reverse what your brain assumes.

I think trans women are a subset of women. You do not. We are not going to change each other’s minds. The purpose of this aside (which I did not instigate) was to suggest that in order to discuss transgender issues, people who support trans rights and gender critical people will need to accept that these two groups use different definitions.

I am not interested in a further derail into definitions of women.

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 07/03/2024 21:01

It's intentionally confusing. Think of other common words that end in -woman, many of them now sounding rather old-fashioned:

Policewoman
Laundrywoman
Frenchwoman
Countrywoman
Congresswoman

The common factor here is that all the people these words describe are female.

If trans rights activists had settled on the terms trans-identifying male and trans-identifying female, they'd have encountered a lot less pushback, and it would have been far, far clearer to the rest of the world what they were talking about.

'Trans-identifying males should be included in women's sports.'
'Trans-identifying males should be housed in women's prisons.'
'Trans-identifying males should be included in group counselling sessions for female victims of sexual violence.'
'Trans-identifying male teenagers should be housed with girls on overnight school residential trips.'

I wonder what possible reason they had for choosing transwomen instead. Hmm

SirChenjins · 07/03/2024 21:03

DadJoke · 07/03/2024 20:55

I think trans women are a subset of women. You do not. We are not going to change each other’s minds. The purpose of this aside (which I did not instigate) was to suggest that in order to discuss transgender issues, people who support trans rights and gender critical people will need to accept that these two groups use different definitions.

I am not interested in a further derail into definitions of women.

Again, it’s your belief, but of course factually, men are not women.

Somanyquestionstoaskaboutthis · 07/03/2024 21:09

Loving her reply even more than her brilliant post

Hampstead Pond - Brave woman speaks
Hampstead Pond - Brave woman speaks
winterplumage · 07/03/2024 21:09

Username947531 · 07/03/2024 20:05

It was members of the Kenwood Ladies Pond Associatiion who attended the AGM in person. So not all pond swimmers and not all KLPA members, only those who turned up to the AGM. All members of the KLPA were told about the AGM.

Ah ok, thanks. I wonder what the reasons were for voting the way they did.

FluffyToesMeow · 07/03/2024 21:13

Ffs

JanesLittleGirl · 07/03/2024 22:45

@DadJoke You can argue that transwomen are women until you are blue in the face but the Equality Act doesn't agree. If TW are W there would be no need for Schedule 3, Part 7, Paragraph 28 in that act.

Talking of the Equality Act, you have been trying to persuade us that excluding transwomen from the Ladies' pond would be unlawful under the EA and its associated statutory guidance. This is link to the EHRC guidance on sex and GR exceptions for service providers:

www.equalityhumanrights.com/sites/default/files/guidance-separate-and-single-sex-service-providers-equality-act-sex-and-gender-reassignment-exceptions.pdf

Careful reading of this guidance reveals that:

1 - excluding people with the PC of GR from a single sex facility is a proportionate means to achieve the legitimate aim of allowing access to people who would otherwise be prevented by their religion if a mixed sex facility is also provided.

2 - excluding people with the PC of GR from a single sex facility is a proportionate means to achieve the legitimate aim of protecting the dignity and privacy of that sex if a mixed sex facility is also provided.

3 - excluding people with the PC of GR from a single sex environment without providing a mixed sex alternative is not necessarily unlawful providing that there is a reasonable balance of impact on competing protected characteristics. If exclusion would cause a detrimental impact on 1,000 people with the PC of GR but cause a positive impact on 4,000 people with the PC of religion (practicing Moslems or Orthodox Jews) then that exemption would be lawful. The service provider would need to conduct an accurate survey to justify exclusion on this basis.

4 - there is no requirement to show that a majority of service users would benefit from the exercise of an exemption to exclude people with the PC of GR. A single letter or email from a woman who believes that including men with the PC of GR would remove her dignity or privacy or from a single Muslim or Orthodox Jewish woman who states that the presence of a biological man prevents her from accessing the service is enough for the provider to review their policy.

5 - any single sex provider who fails to justify their policy of allowing people with the PC of GR to use the facilities that they choose when challenged by a user from 4 will probably be acting unlawfully.

Readers may find it useful to retain the link to the guidance for the next time somebody tries to use Stonewall Law to justify men's access to women's single sex spaces.