Hampstead Pond - Brave woman speaks

[WandaWomblesaurus]

https://twitter.com/roseveniceallan/status/1764345843178512414?s=48

<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20240302074256/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13146349/How-tranquil-oasis-female-swimmers-line-culture-wars-Bitter-row-trans-women-allowed-bathe-historic-single-sex-pond-comes-ferocious-head.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://web.archive.org/web/20240302074256/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13146349/How-tranquil-oasis-female-swimmers-line-culture-wars-Bitter-row-trans-women-allowed-bathe-historic-single-sex-pond-comes-ferocious-head.html

Venice Allan

That is not the statutory guidance, and it is never likely to be.

I'm amused and somewhat disconcerted you find it complicated. It's really very simple.

We both know what "woman" and its plural "women" mean. We disagree about whether trans women (sometimes 'transwomen') are women, which we couldn't if we didn't agree as we do about those meanings. (It wouldn't make sense to say we disagreed: what would we be disagreeing about?)

So what is a trans woman (a transwoman)? Of course this question is related to the question, "What does "trans woman" ("transwoman") mean?" in that if you know what "transwoman" (I'll stop with the alternative; fill in if you like) means, you'll very likely be able to answer the question as to what a transwoman is.

Simple enough?

OK, so let's think about what a transwoman is. The word "transwoman" is something of a neologism (OED has 1994, which seems recent to me, don't know about you), so it's probably worth getting clear about at least a part of what it might mean (which will help us get to grips with the metaphysical question about what a transwoman is, as I said just above).

OK? Well, some people (often perhaps misled by the "woman" occurring in "transwoman") have wrongly thought a transwoman is a woman who is trans. But that's not the case at all. No, actually "transwoman" doesn't mean that: actually a transwoman is a man who is trans. Hmm. (I note that we don't need to know what it is to be trans (or what "trans" means) to know that about what a transwoman is.)

So there you go. A transwoman is a man.

You know what "woman" means, @DadJoke. And you know (don't you?) at least the relevant part of what "transwoman" means. (I just reminded you.) So you know full well about transwomen being men.

But you want to say transwomen are women. OK, say it. Just don't ask me to take you seriously when you do.

And, back where we came in: I'm sure you now realise talk of "us[ing] different meanings for the same word [sc "woman"]" was just a silly mistake on your part.

Oh, and one more thing. Notice I haven't talked about definitions. Ime, "definition" comes with too much baggage of various sorts. Nothing I have said depends on definitions of words. That's something you might think about too.

Mainly, though @DadJoke, you should think about stopping being so silly.

@theilltemperedclavecinist: "I can't believe we're wasting our time like this....."

Indeed. Me neither. But, well, the internet ...

@negeme you are tying yourself in semantic knots for absolutely no reason. It’s you, not me, who is using and defining “transwoman.” I don’t use that term. Trans woman is the term I use and only to differentiate them from non-transgender women. Transgender (adjective) woman (noun). I mean, really, look it up in a dictionary.

trans woman

plural trans women
: a transgender woman : a woman who was identified as male at birth

I cannot believe that you are so ignorant of the debate that you would think otherwise.

But they aren't women Dadjoke. Women are female. In the absence of any rationale why would anyone care about your bizarre assertions that some males are women merely because they say so?

Fuck "the debate". Men are men and ever more shall be so. Come up with an actual reason why people should think men are women that isn't just pontificating nonsense. I dare you.

But why are they “identified as male at birth?” 🤔

By medical professionals who we trust to weight, measure and accurately state time of birth.

It comes down to whether you consider man and woman to be biological categories or a philosophical concept.

Most people go with the former.

Else you may as well say “my kid was born on a Friday but it felt more like a Wednesday so I’ll be changing their date of birth accordingly.”

plural trans women
: a transgender woman : a woman who was identified as male at birth

And remains male because they are.

Deleted, but hilarious!

Honestly let’s just go to the non-men category and be done with the term ‘woman’ full stop. Men. Non-men. NB’s can keep being NB (although they may be happy being non-men?). We need to know our place. As non-men.

And your point is?

The word 'think' here (as opposed to 'know') is key, isn't it.

As far as I can see @DadJoke , you don't have ANY definition of "woman" other than they say so.

That's hardly a definition

I'm not sure how 'I don't believe women should have rights or disobey men' is ever going to stand up really on a feminist board, but whatevs.

Surely basic fairness should say, if there's a mixed sex pond, and it's known that some woman can only use a facility at all if there's a female only provision, and this is part of their diversity, intersectionality, identity, culture, all the stuff the TQ+ lobby bore on for England about, only total bastards who are MRAs would exclude those women.

There is no need for this to happen. It is down to the extreme selfishness of those from the TQ+ political lobby. And it's unjustifiably grim, colonialist behaviour.

Thank you.

I've saved this very clear post for the next time somebody tries to bamboozle us.

Speaking of "definition"

1. noun - the act of defining, or of making something definite, distinct, or clear:

We're still waiting for your definition of "woman"

Nice to see though that you admit that a transwoman is ": a transgender woman : a woman who was identified as male at birth" - not "assigned".

That SEX identification is paramount.

Someone started a thread about lipstick, as a result of which I think I've got one:

'The only people who wear full-face make-up and lipstick in the office are 'women'.'

I don't think it's completely trivial, in that it identifies 'men' as unlikely to want to make themselves look more like 'women' when in a formal setting.

It is, though, still all about either enhancing or aping features associated with actual women aka femininity. So still weak.

This is not the EHRC statutory guidance, is legally dubious and has no standing in law. The current statutory guidance does, and has survived legal challenge in AEA vs EHRC.

in particular - this section was challenged and upheld

If a service provider provides single or separate sex services for women and men, or provides services differently to women and men, they should treat transsexual people according to the gender role in which they present. However, the Act does permit the service provider to provide a different service or exclude a person from the service who is proposing to undergo, is undergoing or who has undergone gender reassignment. This will only be lawful when the exclusion is a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim

The judgment also said:

that even if a service has met the first requirement by showing it needs to be a single or separate sex service in order to exclude men, nevertheless, it must also meet the second requirement to exclude transwomen where necessary.

So, everything I said about the guidance and the law is correct. In order to exclude trans women from women’s spaces, first the service provider has to decide to do so, and second, they must demonstrate this is LAP. We can argue about whether it is LAP or not, but that’s the law as it stands.

https://www.parliament.scot/-/media/files/committees/equalities-human-rights-and-civil-justice-committee/correspondence/2022/briefing-note-from-robin-white-on-ehrc-guidance.pdf

But then, as I never wear make up anywhere, your definition of woman doesn’t include me.

Back to square one, which is what do women and men who claim they are women have in common that nobody else does?

And no, claiming to be a woman cannot be the answer, because you can’t claim to be something unless you can define what it is.

If men are claiming to be women, it implies they know what a woman is in order to want to be one and it’s perfectly obvious they’re relying on the fact that everyone knows what a woman is… only they don’t fit that category.

In order to exclude trans women from women’s spaces, first the service provider has to decide to do so, and second, they must demonstrate this is LAP. We can argue about whether it is LAP or not, but that’s the law as it stands.

Agree. And the EHRC document provides guidance about when it can be LAP.

You've got real old man shouts at cloud energy today, @DadJoke

Sez you!

Why would I believe anything told to me by a person who claims men can be women?

"Nothing I have said depends on definitions of words. That's something you might think about ..."

-Or not. Please yourself.

Yes, I seem to have defined a 'man' (someone who never wants to look more womanly at the office) rather than a 'woman' (someone who might want to look more womanly at the office). Oh well.

The statutory guidance does, and those are the examples to which you should refer, not the non-statutory guidance.

The judge in the AEA case said the best way to approach this is a legal challenge by someone affected, which has the added effect of more case law.

if you disagree with this use of the Pond, then find a service user who objects (I suspect the woman in the video would be up for it) do a crowd fund and challenge it.

The judge in the AEA case said the best way to approach this is a legal challenge by someone affected, which has the added effect of more case law

Agree and there are relevant cases ongoing. Its a slow old process though, so I think we (not you, DadJoke) should be thinking about the clarifying amendment we want to see.