Pro-trans and feminist

[niadainud]

How is this possible?

I genuinely don't understand how you can believe that biological sex isn't real and believe that people can identify as whatever they like, but also claim to be a feminist.

You claim to support women, but you don't agree with there being a biological definition of "woman".

Please can someone explain to me how this works!

The rights of the female human; feminism.

Well not really.
Some movements describe it as that. Some describe it as liberating women from patriarchal oppression. Some describe it as female equality. They don't all agree.

Some fish are goldfish. Some fish are clownfish. Some fish are catfish. Some fish are dead and in batter. All are exactly the same. And have fish rights.

We should centre gnomes in fish rights because they are elfish.

Now they do as they've become so used to the basic rights that were fought for that they've evolved what they think is important, which is where men got involved. And made sure they're included.

The roots of the concept of feminism is
simply centring the needs and rights of women.

lol @RedToothBrush 😆

What rights to males need that they don't already have?

That feminism provides?

No, feminism is about the liberation of women under patriarchy.

It isn't a catch all for all oppressed groups.

It is a position quite a few generally pro-feministic men around me hold.

They don't want to have to choose, they feel good being supportive and wants to continue doing so.

They tend to dismiss the concerns like "issues with the system not working right, not with trans ideology". They just don't care about transmen (and the gay ones wouldn't date one, but see it just as a preference).

How can you liberate women from a system of society or government in which men hold the power and women are largely excluded from it by giving men who want to be women even more power over women.

This doesn't explain "how it works" but demonstrates gender critical feminists are in a minority, at least in the States.

Evidence shows that a large majority of feminists support transgender rights, more so than almost any other group.

The study shows that gender critical views on transgender issues are most aligned with Christian Nationalists.

There is a link to the full survey in the summary.

https://www.prri.org/spotlight/identity-politics-and-transgender-equality/

Isnt it funny when surveys dont show what the TRAs claim they show. What that survey shows (leaving aside the usual who did it and where is the actual questionnaire to see how biased it was) is that most people dont want to be labelled by the terms used in the survey.

Look again. The important data is what self-described feminists think. The PRRI are a well-respected non-partisan body. And yes, most people don't self-describe as feminists. Are you surprised?

The questionnaire is there along with the report.

https://www.prri.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/Topline-LGBTQ-Culture-Issues-V3.pdf

And yes, most people don't self-describe as feminists. Are you surprised?

Why would anyone be surprised? Everyone hated feminists until many "feminist"
organisations better aligned with what men thought was important.

I agree. More of us need to come forward.

I'm so glad the men have arrived to tell us we aren't doing feminism properly.

It's all more of the same.

Words can say anything when they're divorced of actual meaning and used to mean what you want them to.

Feminist doesn't actually mean 'supporter of women's rights' it means 'anyone who identifies as one'

Woman doesn't mean XX chromosomes....

Poor DadJoke, you still dont get it. A survey in which more than half the people didnt see the labels as applying to them means you actually have very small numbers to "analyse".

Then it's an American survey - pretty irrelevant to the uk because American is a more religious country and a more divided one.

Still I guess you could find a few interesting things to comment on, like how people said they were fed up of rabbiting on about pronouns ( I paraphrase), how they didnt want kids being indoctrinated and especially not in the lower grades.

Since America is different to the uk you'd also have to split out responses to see if opinions on e.g. whether kids were being indoctrinated differed between states since some have different laws to others. The differences between countries in the uk are less pronounced than the differences between US states.

There were 5000 people in the survey and of those, 2050 identified as feminists. - a very large number for a survey of this kind. It's the answers the feminists gave which are important.

By all means, post more data on the views of feminists in the UK. Anecdotally, I suspect the proportion of gender critical feminists you know is close to 100%, for me, it's close to 0%. That's why polling data is so important.

I mean you can look at women's organisations and see which are trans-inclusive and their membership, I suppose. That would include almost every single rape crisis centre, almost all women's charities, the Women's Institute, the Ladies Circle, and exclude GC organisations such as Filia, Sex Matters, FWS and LGB Alliance.

What proportion of feminists do you think are gender critical?

I'm not sure how you can really be a feminist if you're not gc. You can't be centring women if you don't know what a woman is and you can't argue that you're against all forms of discrimination when you're promoting discrimination against females. It all baffles me tbh. I think we are in an era when people are managing their self image very closely so more interested in looking like they're doing the right thing than actually doing it.

But I guess the difference is between 'identifies as a feminist' and 'would reasonably be seen as one by people who've actually thought about it'.

Why is everyone "identifying" as things these days, instead of just "being" things?

I don't really count women who actively centre men in feminism as "feminist" Dadjoke, so there is that.

You could almost replace "feminist" with "woman"...

That's far too 2015. (Has it been that long?)

I think the word identifies has become so tainted, it's difficult to use it for its intended purpose.

For example, I came across the phrase 'identifies as homeless' the other day, and just thought WTAF? On further reflection it makes sense as there are many definitions of homeless eg literally on the street, in a hostel, sofa surfing etc and this was WRT an organisation offering help to anyone who needs it.

But the use of the word 'identifies' now just means to me 'someone who actually isn't that thing. But says they are' . I'm sure I'm not alone in this.
Which would make it difficult to, for example, fundraise for an organisation helping people who 'identify as homeless'.

It's muddying language and creasing confusion.