Pro-trans and feminist

[niadainud]

How is this possible?

I genuinely don't understand how you can believe that biological sex isn't real and believe that people can identify as whatever they like, but also claim to be a feminist.

You claim to support women, but you don't agree with there being a biological definition of "woman".

Please can someone explain to me how this works!

I don't know if there is such a thing as "trans". People who claim to have a trans identity certainly think there is. And im not anti them. Even if I disagree with their belief. I also don't think you can change sex.

I just worry about people saying that if you believe TWAW you're "pro-trans"
Which to me implies that if you don't believe that stupid mantra, you are anti-trans. And MN gets enough crap about being anti-trans as it is.

Yes in the sense of 'someone who wishes they were a different sex to what they really are'. Though to be fair, there might be loads of people who wish they were opposite aex but are more able to come to terms with the reality of the fact that humans can't change sex.

I spent many years in my teens wishing very much I was male.

In zero ways did this make me trans.

That is a good point. Perhaps a definition also needs to include the person feeling entitled to make others pretend they are other than their actual sex.

The last time I put this belief on mumsnet, it was deleted!

Yeah I can imagine.

Back before the dark days of gender ideology/queer theory there were 3 main types of feminism:

Marxist/socialist feminism that said you have to get rid of capitalism to have equality

Liberal feminism saw women's oppression as resulting from social factors such as laws which entrenched stereotypes of femininity and masculinity. Discrimination was located outside the physical body, with external factors the cause of women's oppression. Therefore the solution was to change laws on a piecemeal basis. Their aim was equality (not liberation) and they didn't believe in an overarching patriarchy.

Radical feminism aimed to destroy the patriarchy. Their belief was that women's bodily difference from men was the root of their oppression. Legal and policy changes wouldn't be sufficient to liberate women.

So you can see how liberal feminists have always been aligned with an ideology such as trans ideology which focussed on 'performance' of 'femininity'. If the locus of oppression is outside the body then other 'bodies' can suffer this oppression. This is the liberal feminist view.

Since the power of the gender ideologues has grown over the last 20 years radical feminism has flourished as more women have come to realise that liberal feminism didn't offer the liberation it promised and that women are still oppressed due to their biology.

@cordeliachaseatemyhandbag

That explanation is really brilliant! Thank you. So helpful for all to understand in easy digestible terms.

I’ve just had the definition of what psychosis is removed.

Because you know, the English language and it’s proper meanings are literal violence to some.

Oh you are fucking kidding. Never mind 1984 - welcome to 2024!

Afraid not.

It’s just like what happened on The Times.

Thanks for confirming. I have just been reading through the thread and wondered what had been deleted.

Even several trans people themselves (Blair White is one) think it's a mental illness.

Yep.

They need serious mental health care. That would be a kindness to them.

I remember when I was young and getting really angry and resentful for being female. It seemed like everything in life was so much harder because i’d been born a girl. At times, I wished I had been born male. At no point did I enter the delusion I could be though or that really I was. I remained in reality. These people have stepped out of reality and those with other agendas are only too eager to use them as pawns.

Surely the very definition of feminist includes that women have complete body autonomy? If ‘pro life’ means arguing for abolishing abortions, then you’re not a feminist because you’re trying to take away body autonomy. If it means that on a personal level you’d never have an abortion, but that other women should have the right to choose, then you are.

What you have listed are not ‘trans rights’. They re everyone’s rights.

You can’t OP, it’s impossible, I’ve tried.

Unless one can fully subscribe to idea that TWAW, there’s no inbetween. Even acknowledging physical advantages of trans-women isn’t tolerated. And so women must compete against men and accept biology doesn’t play a part and instead it’s because they (a biological female) is inferior. Trans women being allowed to compete in female MMA is particularly disturbing IMO, and I’ve received backlash about that stance!

We’ve gone full circle. But this time, when we push back, we are pushing back against ‘women’.

I suspect this isn’t quite the intended consequence of queer theory that radical feminists had in mind when they pushed it upon us.

I didn't think queer theory was a rad fem thing?

I may be wrong?

People hold all sorts of conflicting views. Everyone on this thread will. It's part of the way humans brains work.

Was this thread started so people who agree with you can discuss the ways in which women who disagree are stupid? That doesn't strike me as being particularly compatible with feminism.

Yes of course people can hold more than one point if view at a time, but they're not usually logically incompatible.

If they do, they should expect to be challenged on it (and hopefully this would give rise to a bit more thinking).

Like the pro life & feminist stance, you would need to define what that person meant by both of those terms. If they meant all abortion should be banned outright, it would be difficult to square that circle with the bodily autonomy of feminism.

Similarly you'd need to define what someone meant by 'pro trans'. As has been said many times, most feminists are in no way 'anti trans' (unless you believe saying TWANW makes you anti trans).

This is why words are important- we need precision in language to be able to define what we are talking about and ensure we understand each other.

Afraid so.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radical_feminism

Whoa there.

That’s quite a high horse you ride in on.