Pro-trans and feminist

[niadainud]

How is this possible?

I genuinely don't understand how you can believe that biological sex isn't real and believe that people can identify as whatever they like, but also claim to be a feminist.

You claim to support women, but you don't agree with there being a biological definition of "woman".

Please can someone explain to me how this works!

My personal opinion is that some people see any oppression of transwomen as rooted in the same factors that oppress women ie pressure to perform femininity correctly, no acceptance of stepping outside gender stereotypes. They therefore think that transwomen and women have common goals in some areas.

I also think transwomen are very adept at using "women's rights" when they really mean "transwomen's rights ".

I think that there is some value in supporting some of this but only limited value. A man who transitions in his 40s will have generally already benefited from a better, more supportive education, schooling, career, more access to public life and a lack of physical factors like menstruation, pregnancy and childcare responsibilities. I don't think transwomen really support action on those fronts, despite them being very important to women.

I think that there is some value in supporting some of this but only limited value. A man who transitions in his 40s will have generally already benefited from a better, more supportive education, schooling, career, more access to public life and a lack of physical factors like menstruation, pregnancy and childcare responsibilities. I don't think transwomen really support action on those fronts, despite them being very important to women.

I do hear where you are coming from. However, from my experience (which is limited as I haven’t met a vast majority of those who identify as trans), partial support isn’t sufficient.

I’ve had some really great discussions and shared a lot of common ground with trans women, but there is a a point where that ends. Sharing my view that a trans women can’t menstruate (following the tampax ad), is met simply with “but they are women”.

So even though on paper, it would be great to navigate this in a way that keeps everyone satisfied, I would have to either ignore or deny that some things are objectively true and warp my own thinking to suit another. Whilst also being compliant in the break down of women’s sports, spaces and support. For example JK Rowling had to speak out when a victim of sexual assault had to refer to her perpetrator as a women.

I’m really open to hearing if others have had discussions like this and how they went? Because I’m aware that ‘in theory’ a lot of these ideas sound good, but what does that look like in practice?

Ok, so I have a cat and I believe it's the cat's right to wander around my home as it choses and to eat anything it might fancy as it does so. I also have a pet mouse and I think, just like the cat, he has an equal right to roam freely around my house, safe from harm.

I can hold both beliefs, I guess, but I'd have to be a bloody idiot for doing so.

(And as it happens it was a man's illogical set of beliefs that led to me starting this thread.)

我们在中国吗?

Queer theory and radical feminism are polar opposites.

I'm very sorry to be picky and don't mean to be rude, but if you're going to debate this issue with any seriousness, you have to know it's "a woman" or "a trans-woman", singular. Not a women or a trans-women.

As for trans-women being able to menstruate, well that is just ludicrous in the extreme.

That's how it seems to me. Is fifth-wave feminism even feminism?

Not in my personal experience.

That’s okay, not rude at all, thanks for pointing out. Can you say abit more about it being ludicrous in the extreme?

Interesting and insightful way to refute my point.

I didn’t see a point. I saw an attack.

If you dig deep I guarantee you hold equally opposing views in some areas. I am sure I do. I don't think it makes either of us "bloody idiots". I think its the way human brains are.

Because transwomen are MALE.

Males do not menstruate because they don't gave ovaries, wombs or even vaginas.

Males have testicle and penises.

TW are, and always will be, MALE. Nobody else on the planet except a male can be a tw.

That's to @Luckyducky123

Do you generally feel attacked when people say things that don't align exactly to your world view?

I know this board is a bit of an echo chamber but I didn't think it was this bad!

I know @Baldieheid, I was just clarifying with @niadainud if she thought my example was extreme, that’s all.

Ah, having read back, I think you were actually agreeing with each other.

I do hope so. I can't feel anything but horror that there may be some adults aroynd who might actually believe that a Tw could menstruate. I know the world is getting dumber by the minute but....surely not that dumb.

Erm 😂

I do hold conflicting views, but I try to explicitly tease them out so I can think a bit more about them and what my position should be. For example, I think eating meat is not beneficial to the environment or animal welfare (I'm generalising for brevity) yet I still do it. I am happy to discuss this and consider changing things.

I find it odd to not want to identify or confront where one's own views are in direct contradiction - but I realise I'm not like a typical person. I know that it can be uncomfortable to realise you hold views that aren't always palateable but that's part of discussion, and progress, isn't it?

The whole thing about being akin to a racist if you're only attracted to one sex I found bizarre yet the people saying it didn't seem to be able to talk honestly about it. Or even acknowledge what they wee saying, really. Words always get changed and twisted.

I don't think many people analyse their own opinions to this degree. It's good that you do and I think we probably wouldn't be in the position we are in if more people did this.

This level of self reflection takes up time and headspace that many people don't have the luxury of. And many of those that do don't have the inclination to do it.

I don't know if anyone can hand on heart say that they are logically consistent in their approach to everything though.

I don’t think that follows really, but this is off topic. I apologise for choosing such a contentious example. I was trying to highlight that you can have views on things that are unconnected that aren’t uniform across all feminists.

Of course it's extreme!

It's one thing to "feel like a woman" (whatever that means), or wanting to dress or act like a woman (which frequently seems to mean some sort of ridiculous caricature à la Dylan Mulvaney) but to say a trans-woman can menstruate is to claim an objective biological impossibility. And to go along with that demonstrates you've totally lost the ability to engage in rational thought and have been blinded by the cause of trans-activism.

Yes, I was agreeing with Luckyducky.

Your meat example is a non sequitur. Yes, it's hypocritical, but it's quite straightforward to see why you can believe eating animals is wrong but still do it. Liking a steak or a bacon sandwich and having the human weakness to consume it has nothing to do with logic.

I'm sure we have all done things we essentially disagree with because it happens to benefit us at the time - lying is an obvious example. But for a straight man to have a directly conflicting beliefs about two groups of people (trans-women and women) when he belongs to neither group (so is disinterested) is just a total failure of reasoning for no personal gain.

@niadainud the personal gain is the feeling like they are a good person looking out for marginalised groups. Don't underestimate this.