Pro-trans and feminist

[niadainud]

How is this possible?

I genuinely don't understand how you can believe that biological sex isn't real and believe that people can identify as whatever they like, but also claim to be a feminist.

You claim to support women, but you don't agree with there being a biological definition of "woman".

Please can someone explain to me how this works!

Yes I agree my meat example isn't an equivalent belief, but it was an example of how when I think I'm holding views that don't completely align, I like to examine them and bring them out in the open. That's the way you can become confident in your position, and I accept that if people say my habits contribute to environmental decline, I would accept that and not attempt to argue the opposite.

We don't see any of this with the trans agenda. They can state outright homophobic and misogynistic things and refuse to acknowledge or examine them. It's all about linguistic sleight of hand, evasion, and dishonesty.

But for a straight man to have a directly conflicting beliefs about two groups of people (trans-women and women) when he belongs to neither group (so is disinterested) is just a total failure of reasoning for no personal gain.

They get to not have their livelihoods or bodies threatened and the warm glow of being able to tell a woman to shut up without fear of being "on the wrong side of history"....

I'm not arguing that it's not total failure of reasoning - it absolutely is and I have registered my repeated bewilderment at this over the years! I'm kind of arguing against the notion that it's normal and human to constantly live in this state, as pp have.

It's not possible and for the law to function.

Yes, that's a very good point. For someone who gets validation and lots of lovely warm tingly feelz from affirming everyone, especially anyone a bit left of centre, then I can see there would be a strong incentive to support all these different movements regardless of whether that actually makes any sense.

The sort of person who, after a discussion about chromosomes, says, "But what is your truth?"

That seems to be exactly how a lot of trans people feel, though. Attacked, I mean.

I think they probably do feel this and I think in some cases they are quite justified in feeling that way.

And on other cases I guess they don't? interesting to think about how many women are literally attacked and how trans ideology removes protections and support for those women.

Yes of course, some cases aren't justified at all.

Women are literally attacked in huge numbers every day. That's indisputable. However I used to work with a transwoman who once got beaten up so badly that hospital treatment was required due to being both black and trans.

Your pal was beaten up, partly for being a TW, something that could never happen to a woman.

Who beat them up? I'm willing to bet money the attackers didn't have vaginas. So this is a male violence issue. Again.

Doesn't make me any more willing to be used as a human shield by a different kind of male.

Thanks for the link. I'm not convinced though - I can't see the mention of queer theory in relation to radical feminism.

AFAIK, radical feminist theory and queer theory both promote the overthrow of current societal norms.

Most radical feminists are 'sex realists', believing that women's oppression stems from our treatment by society because of our biology-we are the ones that get pregnant.

However, queer theory says this is all a social construct which is certainly not a radical fem view , more a liberal fem view(again, AFAIK, hopefully someone who knows more than me will come along and enlighten us! )

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queer_theory

You can be feminist and also opposed to the oppression of minorities. I I dont want trans people harmed more than they have already harmed themselves (but that does not include supporting their fantasies by compelled speech), I dont want any discrimination against trans people in employment, I'm happy for trans people to have facilities like a trans refuge.

If you are advocating for those born male to have the same rights as those born female you only identify as feminist.

@WhiteVelvet definitely do not accept anything written on wiki as "fact."

Finn McKay for example is not a radical feminist, as cited currently on that page.

The whole trans ideology is anti feminist at its core.

It's about some men finding yet another way to ostracise, control, abuse and demean women and girls.

If men can be women, just by uttering the magically words 'I'm a lady' then a millennia of abuses women and girls have suffered can be just washed away, because men, with their special feelz, are now far more oppressed.

No woman who centres men in their feminism can truly care about the social and financial equality, safety and dignity of biological females of any age.

Your post is utterly ignorant. Feminism is about equality, that includes any oppressed group, including trans people. I support anyone’s free choice to live how they wish without fear or discrimination.

Feminist is about equality for women and girls....

Not men ...who are not an oppressed demographic btw.

Any female who centres men, is not a feminist.

I’d qualify the need for mental health care is not needed except possibly for a vanishingly tiny proportion of men who truly believe that they are women or seriously body dysmorphic.

Your experience of hating being female as a teen points to how children and young adults desperately need to stop being ‘affirmed’. For the fucking algorithms to stop serving up affirmative post after affirmative post. For hating one’s body to stop being glorified on tv or in films or by actors. For parents, educators, and health professionals to engage their critical thinking faculties they’ve lost en masse.

And then those with a paraphilia need/ed to be told to continue to act this out in their own homes and not insist on the ROW being an unwilling and non-consenting participant.

Whilst the vast vast majority of trans identifying men absolutely know they are men and, indeed, wish to retain their biological markers of being male. They have no need of any mental health care. They are happy enough with their chosen path in life. What thhis group need, and needed, is to be told ‘no’ to their deeply misogynistic desire to usurp, control, and take over women and women’s spaces.

Wikipedia is a fantastic resource, but it’s not the final arbiter of truth or reality. Some feminists were interested in Queer Theory way back when the whole thing was pretty much theoretical, or just harmless gender-bending — long before gender identity became the serious social problem it is now. I don’t know any feminist who thinks much of it now.

Feminism is about equality and equity (amongst other things) for women. TW are men who want to present as a version of some women - so if those men want to hold their hands up and say ‘I want the freedom to call myself Susan, I’m growing my hair long and I’m going to wear a bit of lippy, but I recognise that does not make me a woman and as a male with the inherent privilege and power that bring I will fight for women and girls to live their lives without fear of oppression or discrimination and with equality and equity in all they do, and won’t seek to dominate their spaces’ then yes, technically you can be pro trans and a feminist.

Absolutely. This seems to be at the heart of Third Wave or liberal feminism. It’s the Be Kind movement. Feminism-lite, the sort that won’t offend anyone who matters.

It’s fauxminism.

Feminism is about women only.

And of course you can be, as most are, feminist and opposed to all kinds of prejudice and unfairness.

men suffer awfully from the patriarchy as well, especially gender non conforming men who are particularly at risk.
for example I feel comfortable walking down a street on a busy night out, I would just blend in, a gender non conforming man would be heckled, spat at, beaten up depending where they are.

But the huge and essential difference is that gender-non conforming is a behaviour, not an unchangeable physical characteristic.

A GNC man can choose not to look different, and therefore to be safe. Why should he have to? I agree it’s unfair, but he has the choice.

A woman cannot choose not to be female (though I sympathise with the many young women who try to). A woman trying to look like a boy is at much at risk as any other woman, possibly more as she has drawn unwelcome attention.

Agreed x

In some cases, yes. But a lot of them seem very quick to take offence in cases where someone is, for example, stating scientific fact, or expressing a legitimate concern regarding safeguarding.

I don't understand your last paragraph?

People who want men to have women’s rights can identify as feminists, in the same way men can identify as women. That doesn’t make them real feminists, just as it doesn’t make men become real women.

I'm not sure whether you mean my OP specifically, but what about biological women who feel oppressed by trans women? Such as Riley Gaines and other women on her swimming squad. How do you square that?

"Not in my personal experience"

How?