My son can tell...

[allthevitamins]

Watching 'Inside the Factory' on BBC1 with DS, 10.

Cherry Healy was talking about lightbulbs with Dr Clara Barker, Materials Scientist.

Please note this is not personal in relation to Dr Baker.

Dr Barker is Transwoman.

DS says, 'is that a lady?'.

I say no, it's a man.

We left it at that.

I mean Dr Barker is quite feminine.

But unprompted, my DS knew that Dr Barker is not a woman.

Why should I have to lie to him about this?

@allthevitamins I can't really add to the wonderful comments from most of the previous posters, but thougt that I'd share this with you.

I listened to an episode of The Curious Cases of Rutherford & Fry: The Mystery of the Teenage Brain with my DS who was I think 11, or just turned 12 at the time.

Here is some of the blurb:
"‘Why are teens prone to risky behaviour?’ asks Dr Mark Gallaway, ‘especially when with their friends?’
13 year old Emma wonders why she’s chatty at school but antisocial when she gets home.
And exasperated mum Michelle wants to know why her teens struggle to get out of bed in the morning.
Swirling hormones and growing bodies have a lot to answer for but, as Professor of Psychology from the University of Cambridge Sarah-Jayne Blakemore explains, there’s also a profound transformation going on in the brain.
Dr Adam Rutherford and Dr Hannah Fry discover how the adolescent brain is maturing and rewiring at the cellular level and why evolution might have primed teens to prefer their peers over their parents.
Frances Jensen, Professor of Neurology at the University of Pennsylvania, tells us how all these brain changes can impact social relationships."

I then used this as a spring board to discuss with him things like peer-pressure, that the part of the brain that manages social interaction develops before the frontal lobe, which manages logic and executive function, all of this led on to discussions about fads, trends, social contagion, online-influences, marketing and more, including GI.

My son can tell too.. he can spot a bloke pretending to be a woman a mile off.

If you watch that Marie Curious video with Dr Barker pretending to be a women it's truly nauseating.

It's so insulting - it's immediately obvious he's a man. It's gaslighting, coercive control and this is in a programme ostensibly to encourage girls to do science. Why would they bother when this is the abuse they received? Compelled belief that a man is a woman when the fact you can't change sex is pretty basic biological science.

It's so wrong and Oxford University is failing safeguarding very badly here. I wonder if the girls involved with this have to share toilets with this big man? This is against the rules for schools - it's breaking the law for schoolchildren which are single sex toilets over the age of 8.

And why is Barker's self identity more important than the girls perception that he's a man? Which is a safeguarding instinct.

Oh right, because if you're XX your opinion doesn't matter - the exact opposite of what Marie Curious claims to be about - gaslighting Orwellian bullshit.

Remember the girl duped by Amy/ Andrew Miller in Scotland and the judges comments. It's not surprising she got into that car, is it when schoolgirls receive this sort of "education"?

Or indeed you could say,

No it’s a man who likes dressing in a way that he thinks women dress like.

Living as a women....what does that actually mean you ask. I've never had an answer to this question but I thought I'd write my thoughts on how to live as a woman.

DO
Take a pay cut
Start walking with keys between your fingers after a night out
Expect to be spoken over in meetings
Carry on wearing jeans and t-shirts

DON'T
Carry on running alone at night in isolated areas
Start flicking your hair
Expect to rise to board level
Expect car safety or protective clothing to be made for your size and shape.

Disclaimer: This list is not exhaustive and possibly inaccurate for many women because all women are individuals live differently.

Or even that is a man who likes people to look at him and think he is dressing as he thinks some women dress.

Are some people confusing drag queens and trans women? Or maybe haven't met a lot of transwomen? I have met many who dress conservatively or otherwise just as all other women who have their own sense of style.

I could also understand if you'd been unable to dress ultra feminine your whole life and suddenly could how you'd want to embrace that.

I have to respectfully disagree with the OP, I would not have said 'no they're a man'

I may have clarified when they were born they were a boy, but we all parent differently.

I wouldn't want my child mis-gendering a trans person because I had.

but obviously depends on the age and understanding of the child.

I may have clarified when they were born they were a boy…

So as an adult they are clearly a man. Just a man who prefers to wear feminine clothing.

Unless you think some alchemy transformed every cell in his body the day he wore a skirt?

@pickledandpuzzled

Trans people are born in one gender and live and identify as another... but I don't know that I would necessarily explain 'identifying as female' to a small child.

So I might have explained part of it, they were born a boy; so they understood why they looked a bit more masculine? and then that helps normalise it so if my kid sees trans people in school or in other public places they aren't confused or don't say 'why is that man wearing a dress?' they just understand some people look different.

Are some people confusing drag queens and male people with TQ+ identities?

No.

The professed faux naivety that all male people with TQ+ identities are harmless, appropriate, etc, and 'my lovely trans friend' has been used to leverage men into women's prisons where women have been raped, men into women's toilets where two little girls have been assaulted, and women silenced from being able to stand up to or even be allowed to protest men behaving very inappropriately and threateningly.

There are plenty of male people with TQ+ identities who do not dress in the way that most women do of their age, or appropriately. That some do does not cancel out those that don't. I am not willing to teach a child to pretend that any male in feminine clothing is appropriate whether or not they in fact are, or that they should disregard the evidence of their eyes as to the man's sex. The butcher who took, assaulted and likely would have killed that little girl had she not escaped him, traded on exactly this.

Your beliefs are yours, you are free to raise your children in whatever beliefs and faiths you hold. But just because in your household you believe in hell and life everlasting does not compel me to teach my children the same to be polite to you. It will be a case of me teaching my child 'some people believe', and also teaching them about boundaries and safeguarding.

I think ‘some men wear dresses’ is a more accurate answer than a conversation about the inner gendered souls of a total stranger, to be honest.

As PPs have said, how do you ‘live as’ a gender?
The innate differences between men and women are biological, nothing to do with how people choose to live. I’m a woman whether I wear trousers, work in engineering, give birth or not. No matter what typical male activities or clothes I wear, I can’t be male.

Sort of feel like I covered not discussing 'inner gendered souls' with small kids by saying I wouldn't want that conversation with a small child.

I don't think gender plays a role in what I tell my kids about strangers. I don't tell them to trust women above men - trans or otherwise, and sadly now a days it doesn't even seem like you can say find a police officer.

but as I said, we all raise our kids differently.

If a child was in a situation where they had to ask a stranger for help, it does make sense to ask a woman instead of a man.
The vast majority of crimes are committed by men, including some 98% of violent/sexual crimes. So although of course 1. some women commit crime, and 2. we would all hope very that a child is never in such a fix that they need help from a stranger, it is absolutely appropriate to tell them to seek out a woman in preference to a man.
The other thing is that in addition, they should follow their instincts. If they see a woman giving off Myra Hindley vibes (I'm being silly, but humans do have strong preservation instincts about things being 'off') then perhaps the kind-looking dad with 3 kids all munching on a packed lunch might be a better option.
And the relevance of that is that we subvert natural human instincts when we start playing with the truth.

I understand a lot more men commit violent and sexual crimes, but they often have women within their control to help, and I don't know about the ability of all kids to 'vibe check'. Ted Bundy was charming and I'd have got in a van with Rolf Harris, my music teacher was just a 'sweet old man'.

It breaks my heart how many female scammers prey on the older generation as well.

The sad and evident fact is there is no hard and fast safe rule when it comes to people, we tend to talk about situations - i.e never going somewhere alone with someone you've asked for help, be somewhere like a shop and stay around people.

I don't want my kids to be terrified of everyone, but equally the world is a scary place.

We all just do our best for our families.

@missshortie89

You are making an assumption that OP was referring to gender, which as we know, some people believe is separate from sex.

Please can you explain what female gender is if it's nothing to do with biological female sex. Just a short definition of what female gender is would be really helpful.

Also would you mind explaining why you assumed the OP's child was referring to the trans woman's gender not their sex. It's quite an assumption that the child was asking about gender not sex.

@missshortie89

You have also said that "Trans people are born in one gender and live and identify as another."

If gender is some people's belief of who they are and sex is biological reality then you've muddle two concepts into one sentence.

Are you saying that trans people are born with one inner feeling of their sex and then identify as another inner feeling.

Do you mean trans people are born biologically either male or female and then choose to take on a gender stereotype because they have inner feelings that they are the opposite sex?

Yes re the point about scams. Mainly women commit acquisitive offences. They also mainly commit far less serious offences, across the board, than men, and their offending is more likely to be linked to drug abuse and mental health problems.
So all of this links in with the issues raised here: men are a lot more dangerous, and especially so in the ways which a parent would particularly worry about (sex crime and violent crime), so the normalisation of the TWAW idea is dangerous because not only is it biologically impossible, it also has ramifications in terms of the way we teach our children about risk.

Interesting question, but I do think it's fair to assume a child would not be differentiating between gender and sex. I don't know the age of the OP's child but sure going into the nuance required to explain the difference is probably a bit much for a little one just trying to understand seeing a transwoman on TV for potentially the first time. Also the kid said 'lady' which feels more gendered than sex. I work in healthcare and science and don't use the term 'lady' scientifically/biologically.

But you're right, it'd be good to make sure kids are aware there is a difference between sex and gender from a young age.

I just answered the question with how I would address it with my child.

I don't personally see a problem with saying they are a man in a dress because as a first start that can help normalise people dressing differently and looking differently and can be expanded on at a later date. I just said that I personally would have felt uncomfortable mis-gendering someone for the sake of simplicity as it may cause confusion later on, however both of our kids are older and so it's hard to think about how I might have approached it.

There are lots of sources for understanding the difference and I'm not an authority on any of it, just someone with opinions just like the rest of the people responding

• Yale university (linked below) has a good explanation of how they differentiate.

https://medicine.yale.edu/news-article/what-do-we-mean-by-sex-and-gender/

@Sendintheultrafrownz I suppose I mean as a child gender is often dictated by parents and society based on sex.

Like sexuality, it's often assumed someone is straight until they are not.

It's assumed we're cis gender until we're not.

@missshortie89 my child is 10, that's been repeated numerous times in this thread.

He said 'is that a lady or a man' because that's the polite, well-socialised language that he knows. He actually didn't comment about the dress as such.

In this scenario, it wasn't just the individual's self-presentation that I was critiquing, but the forced acceptance by the BBC that using a conventional female name, and female pronouns without question (and therefore effectively ' presenting this man as a woman' was ok with me as a licence-fee paying member of the public - I was not ok with that.

I stand by my instructions to my DC to 'find a mum with a pram' if they need help in a public place for all of the reasons PPs have kindly illustrated.

Use of the word 'cis' is offensive to some people, I am one of those people.

My son lacks the maturity and language skills to understand the nuances of sex and gender.

If you don’t teach your child that in times of need, approach a woman with children as your first bet, then you are doing them a disservice.

I taught mine if they get lost or in trouble when out on their own, approach a woman with children, or a shopkeeper in a big/busy shop as they’ll have procedures.

Feel like I've offended people and was not my intention.

Never met anyone offended by CIS so apologies for using it if you are.

I haven't told anyone how to raise their kids and stated numerous times that we all do it differently.

I haven't read the full thread (it's very long) so didn't read the child was ten, equally age doesn't equate understanding. I did feel that mostly it was all people just agreeing, which is fine, but thought it might be nice for a slightly different view point.

It's nice when things like this can get discussed rather than just have echo chambers for both sides. It does us all good to hear each others view points.

Like for myself, as I said, I've never known CIS be offensive, again sorry.

All conversations like this are difficult with kids of any age and adults too.

@pickledandpuzzled I don't teach my kids that all females are safe, even if they have a pram because of personal experience, not saying it's wrong to do so, but just don't believe because you think that's ok I should. You're allowed to think that's disservice to them and I'm allowed to disagree, but as I said, I don't like a one size fits all on trusting people. Those who are looking to exploit are fully aware of what is deemed societally acceptable.

So what advice do you give them if they find themselves alone and vulnerable?

Of course I don’t tell mine all women are safe. I told them women with children would best know what to do.

Theme parks attract predators for example, and predators are almost always male. Stay with your group. If you lose your group get help from…. The 50% of the population least likely to be a predator.

missshortie
Thank you for making your points politely.
Just in case anyone is in any doubt (which I would very much hope they're not!) of course it would be incorrect to say 'all women are safe'.
The point is that a child is statistically far far less at risk with a woman than with a man.

@pickledandpuzzled luckily they've never been alone and vulnerable but we've always said stay in a public place, ideally somewhere like a shop where there are more people and cameras and ask someone who works there for help. I've always thought better to trust a group of the general public rather than one individual, in case it's the wrong individual. You'd hope in a public place someone would intervene but I admit, it's not perfect advise, we've tended to just stay away from saying any set person 'lady with a pram, police man, lolly pop lady'

For background - My friend was was groomed by a female with a kid the same age and then assaulted by her partner when we were kids. So I do have personal reasons behind it and I do know not all women are like that but it's hard not to be affected by things.

Do you guys tell your kids to give people their names/ parents names?

We were always told not to as kids, at school we weren't allowed names on bags or headbands etc because people could say 'oh Lilly I know your Mum' etc

not offended by what is said - and yes, polite debate is great... however I think there are some flaws in what you are saying which need to be discussed more because it is only as we unpick the flaws to fund truth that we move to a better society which is more tolerant of all people...

I have to respectfully disagree with the OP, I would not have said 'no they're a man'

I may have clarified when they were born they were a boy, but we all parent differently.

However - this implies that you accept them now as a woman - at the core of current transgender issues is the scientific fact that no one born male can ever be female - the whole of one 'side' bases all their arguments on trying to obfuscate this fact and pretend it doesn't exist - the other 'side' is focused on peeling back those layers of misinformation and deceit to focus on truth...

If they were born a boy then they are now a man - there is no room for alternatives nothing else is possible - so the OP was right to teach her son truth - the person in question is a man. To parent differently from that is of course your prerogative, but I find it hard to understand how any parenting could offer an alternative reason while still teaching truth.

I wouldn't want my child mis-gendering a trans person because I had.

There is no such thing as mis-gendering, this is another fallacy propagated by those who have ulterior motives in trying to persuade the world that there is this magical feely gender thing which if you feel one way makes you male and another makes you female...

this is the Oxford English Dictionary definition of Gender:
'The state of being male or female as expressed by social or cultural distinctions and differences'
i.e. it is about symbolism and stereotypes - it is as society / culture sees it currently - that high heels were originally male footwear and are now female footwear is one good example of how those symbols change perception over time - so gender is fluid and societal - never static and biological... as such a person who wears a skirt today and a tie tomorrow would be demonstrating adhesion to female then male gender - neither would make them male or female.

As gender is fluid and transient - you are not a gender - you simply act or dress or respond in a way seen by society as typical of a gender... Because it is not something that you are, you can not be mis-gendered.

(NB - definition 2 of gender is: 'To copulate. Frequently with with[sic]. Obsolete.' now that does lead to some interesting reflections on the 'trans-gender' movement 😁)

Trans people are born in one gender and live and identify as another...
As per above - sorry, but this is not thought through and makes no sense... unless you simply mean that a baby boy is placed in a blue romper suit but then wears pink shirts as a man?! As gender (see official definition above) is simply a societal shorthand, no baby or young child has any sense of gender identity - they can't because at that age they do not understand society - to be fair, children learn about gender early on as they start to realise that society sells some toys to boys and some to girls, that life is less fair for the female sex, that some jobs are seen as for one or the other etc. - but that has nothing to do with being born or changing...

It's assumed we're cis gender until we're not.
I understand what you are trying to say, but this is understandably offensive to many - the word cis was developed by those in the transgender movement to self-validate their claims that they had changed from man to woman - by calling all those who were born women 'cis-women' they can claim that cis-women and transgender-women are simply two subsections of women - ergo they are women...

I am sure that on reflection you can see how offensive that must be to those born women who need no classification other than female / woman and who object strongly to being 'sub-classified' to allow men to pretend that they are women.

Also, as above gender is something that is a shorthand for how someone appears / behaves in society at that point - you are not 'a gender' - if all men start wearing trousers one leg green and one red, and all women start wearing a blue glove on one hand and a brown one on the other - then by tradition building these would become gender identities

gender has zero to do with sex and let's be clear the underlying discussion here is about sex not gender - no-one sensible cares if a chap wishes to wear a skirt - but pretending that he is a woman just opens up so many issues and as we all know (including those who pretend otherwise) a man can never be a woman...