Does anyone actually fully support trans people in women's changing rooms and loos?

[bottomsup12]

Just curious really? I see a lot of aggressive stances (Owen Jones eg) pro this on twitter etc. I don't get it.
The only reason I can think of is that it's never actually happened to them and they imagine it will be fine but when it actually happens a few times they might start seeing sense?

For the men who are aggressively pro it I wonder how they would feel is women just started flooding into their changing rooms and bathrooms ?

I am sorry that you have been treated this way.

I have family members and friends who have also be raped and they have and still receive ongoing support. I am very sorry to hear that you have not been supported.

Now I've read it all.

As a rape victim you are now bordering on rape apology.

Only one sex can rape.

What has led you to men's rights activism @PP82 ?

Clearly you don't think that being raped multiple times is the most traumatic experience but do you think that this has had a bearing on you seeing men as being all powerful and deserving of everything they want?

Do you think that men being refused access to women's single sex spaces because they identify as trans women is worse than being raped? As you seem to put 'their perceived trauma' first in your hierarchy.

@PP82

Women get raped, try to forget about it, and get on with their lives. Getting support is something that only happens in soaps or issue based dramas.

I'm sorry to read that you've had poor experiences with aftercare / support following your attacks. You were let down by many people.

To be clear though, what you say above simply isn't true for everyone despite you stating it as an absolute fact.

Some of us have been lucky to have support after rapes from rape crisis groups and specialised therapists. Those services were vital for some of us to recover and move on from what happened.

The way you deal with trauma isn't the 'right' way for everyone and isn't a universal thing. The way we deal with trauma is individual and many of us did need external and professional support to be able to move on.

You said earlier that you don't agree with any single sex services. Would you really tell a rape victim who was finding women only rape crisis groups to be hugely healing and a safe space that she was a bigot for not wanting natal men to be in those groups? To not want natal men present when discussing the trauma of her rape? You can't surely mean that you disagree with women's rape crisis remaining single sex spaces?

I don't think that. I think that trans women are women, and that families should stay together on maternity units.

I certainly don't think men should have whatever they want. Whatever that even means.

Also, no female person can remove another female's consent to be being in a female single sex only space with a male when they do not consent to that male person's presence.

In this, there is no debate. Because it comes under consent and someone cannot remove another person's consent and declare themselves 'ethical'. Particularly once that someone has acknowledged that they have either very low or no boundaries.

How well you understand me🙂

It's the rights of over half the population I'm seeking to protect. The impoverished MRAs like you aren't going to hand anything over. So yeah: I'm happy to buy women's rights. Money talks, mate! 😍

But trans women are men, that's just factual.

Some trans women are rapists.

What you are doing is men's rights advocacy.

How do women benefit from trans women being allowed in women's toilets and changing rooms?

Yet you acknowledge that male transitioners are still male.

And not just chromosomally. They are male because they have a body that is male sexed to the very coding of their cells. That can never change.

Exactly this.

But in what way are TW, women? They are biological males. They may or may not present in a stereotypical female way but they’re still men with bodies designed around the production of small gametes

And you know the way we really know TW are men? It’s because if they really were women their wishes and wants would just be ignored instead of everyone from
the dept of education to the NHS to sainsburys, costas and the Bank of England falling over themselves to accommodate them & say how S&B they are

I think to exclude a trans woman who had been raped from such a space would be monstrous. Why would anyone seek to do that? How is she a threat? Having been raped doesn't mean you can other and exclude trans women.

One of my rapists had a particular regional accent. Should I be able to ban anyone with such accent from a support group in case it triggers me? Or does her right to access the service outweigh my discomfort?

You 'think' they are women, you 'know' they are male. Male people don't belong in female-only spaces

How did the definition of sexually consent expand to 'share the use of a toilet with?' Waters it down to the point of being meaningless.

Socially they are female

Goodness, no they are not. Not in any way. Socially they are usually quite extremely male in their behaviours, perceptions, expectations and behaviour towards female people.

Socially they may perform some current western stereotypes of how male people perceive femininity. That's it. That is all.

I think to exclude a trans woman who had been raped from such a space would be monstrous. Why would anyone seek to do that? How is she a threat? Having been raped doesn't mean you can other and exclude trans women.

So the male rape victims is higher up the hierarchy than the female. Their feelings are put above those of the female.

This is Men's right's activism.

The trans woman can still have access to rape crisis support but it should not be in a woman's single sex space.

There are specialist services for transwomen who have been raped, as there should be. I think that is perfectly justifiable, maybe you'd like to explain why it is not justifiable to provide similar services exclusively for biological women.

The comment about accents is just crass.

You are talking such bollocks now @PP82.

A male (aka) TW who has been raped should be entitled to support and compassion BUT not at the expense of women.

I am really curious about this, PP82 can you explain what it is that transwomen have in common with all other women, but not men? This is usually explained using stereotypes and feelings, but since many women don’t conform to those stereotypes, and don’t recognise those feelings (or equivalent ‘man’ feelings) does this mean they are not women?

I have a low income but a decent amount of spare cash. Once I've finished 'buying babies" I'll hand the rest over to Stonewall. 😉

@PP82

I think to exclude a trans woman who had been raped from such a space would be monstrous. Why would anyone seek to do that? How is she a threat? Having been raped doesn't mean you can other and exclude trans women.

One of my rapists had a particular regional accent. Should I be able to ban anyone with such accent from a support group in case it triggers me? Or does her right to access the service outweigh my discomfort?

Wow.

It's worth reflecting on the fact that when you've shared trauma on here including baby loss, fertility struggles and sexual assault, the very same women whose opinions and experiences you've dismissed, belittled and mocked have repeatedly said they are sorry you've been through those traumas.

You have failed spectacularly to show an ounce of reciprocal empathy to anyone who has mentioned trauma to you. Not a 'sorry that happened to you too' etc.

Just misogynistic whataboutery and strawman arguments.

Surely it feels shitty to respond to people without acknowledging their trauma when they have, moments before you replied, acknowledged yours and sent sympathy?

And I'm still unclear why you don't see the huge hypocrisy you've displayed when it comes to private healthcare. Which you think is morally wrong. Unless it's the only way you can have something you personally want.

I think that @PP82 thinks that being socially female is the tging that's important.

She still hasn't answered my question about what that entails?

Is it nail polish, make up, high heels and a love of Prosecco?

Is it doing the majority of caring roles for minimum wage?

Is it dancing round your handbag?

Is it watching rom coms?

I'm dying to know but I won't hold my breath?

By living in a world where everyone's identity is respected, and no one is discriminated against when accessing services.

Lol @PP82 - and it's the men who are the most discriminated against 🤣🤣🤣

But you're not.

You're respecting the identity of the male.

You're ignoring the needs of the female or telling them 'their trauma is not that bad'.

The male is not being denied services at all. They can access the services of their sex or third spaces.

Anything else is men's rights activism because it's telling them their identity is more important than the woman's lived experience.

By living in a world where everyone's identity is respected, and no one is discriminated against when accessing services.

Apart from all the women who will self exclude from those services because of the men using them.