Does anyone actually fully support trans people in women's changing rooms and loos?

[bottomsup12]

Just curious really? I see a lot of aggressive stances (Owen Jones eg) pro this on twitter etc. I don't get it.
The only reason I can think of is that it's never actually happened to them and they imagine it will be fine but when it actually happens a few times they might start seeing sense?

For the men who are aggressively pro it I wonder how they would feel is women just started flooding into their changing rooms and bathrooms ?

Personally, I don’t really care. Toilets have cubicles so I don’t care what the person next to me has in their nether regions. I don’t feel it’s any more of a threat cause there is nothing stopping a man coming into a ladies toilet and assaulting her now! The door does nothing to stop nefarious individuals. As for changing spaces, I support unisex spaces with cubicles. I don’t want to change in front of others, and don’t want to see naked strangers. I swim 5 times a week in a pool with unisex changing. This system works for all. Opinions on trans rights doesn’t even have to enter the picture if it’s unisex. The fact there is a naked man in the next cubicle does me no harm unless he intends it, and again, segregated spaces wouldn’t stop him harming me if he intended to.

Unisex is great for women who are happy to use mixed sex spaces.

What shall we do with all the women who aren't or even can't?

I don’t feel it’s any more of a threat cause there is nothing stopping a man coming into a ladies toilet and assaulting her now!

Well that proved my point didn't it

I have known some women who do as they are right down the rabbit hole of anyone is a woman who says they are and that they are “vulnerable”. Intelligent women otherwise who have the cheek to call themselves feminists and some are even lesbians. Absolutely bonkers.

Why do people come up with the “loos have cubicles” as some kind of gotcha?

loos have always had cubicles. I’ve never been to one where I had to piss and shit in an open space.

but yet they have still been single sex. so why not now?

@SweetPetrichor it's not the toilet door, it's the social convention that goes with it. So if people see a man entering toilets marked as for women, then they are likely to notice, to question, to intervene, to notify someone else etc etc.

Re your last point I don’t get it either. I genuinely don’t care why any woman gives a flying fuck about the “rights” and “vulnerabilities” of a man who says he’s a woman

And what's to stop a bloke in a dress hanging round the basins until a woman comes in and then forcing himself into the cubicle with her?
I don't even care if they've had everything chopped off - they're still (usually) bigger and stronger. You don't need a penis to penetrate a woman, you do need the ability to overpower her. Men are more likely to have that.

It's not just about peeing, I don't want to have to deal with my periods if there are men in the same room (yes even with cubicles).

Until very recently, this was pretty much universally understood and accepted.

If we lived in a utopian gender neutral world when men didn't harass and hurt women in huge numbers in every society in the world, I'd be well up for mixed-sex facilities. But we don't. Too many men love to dominate, scare and abuse women.

There was a time when women had to share with men. Everyone knew it was a problem then and things changed. Why do some people think it’s acceptable now?

Not long ago my friends 19 year old daughter was in a bar in London when a TW came into the ladies, and sat pissing with the door wide open - but that never happens does it?

There's so much double-think in the trans idealogy.

We're told to believe that toilets and changing rooms just aren't a big deal at all. You've got mixed-sex toilets in your own home! You've shared toilets many times with TW and you never even realised! We just want to pee etc etc.

At the same, the reason that we're meant to believe it's not a big deal, is because it simultaneously is such a big deal that it would be too traumatic for trans identifying man to have to use the toilet with other men. And/or, men are too violent and unpredictable, and pose too great a risk. Not the men that we're meant to let into the ladies, though- they're all gold star, A rated, totally predictable, and definitely no risk to anyone.

Yes, that sums it up brilliantly @Baircasolly

It's why none of us ever lock our doors when we leave the house.

What's to stop someone just kicking them in?

Sorry, to answer your actual question; I think there are lots of women who maybe have a close male friend who they would feel completely comfortable sharing an intimate space with. And they take that personal opinion of "I wouldn't mind sharing with anyone like him", and somehow extrapolate it out to "no woman would mind sharing with any male".

But I just don't understand how they can genuinely believe it! I think they must work hard at avoiding thinking about it for longer than 10 seconds at a time?

Yeah, but that only works if it’s busy and/or overlooked. I was thinking about this recently when using a supermarket toilet where you walk into a L-shaped corridor and round to the furthest point for the ladies toilets. Often you are the only person in the toilets unless it’s a particularly busy time, and a man could walk in without being noticed because there’s nobody there to notice it. Granted, if there’s CCTV he could be captured after the fact, but that’s no comfort.

Similarly, I was in a shopping centre and it was a busy Saturday, mobbed because there was a cheerleader thing on, and a dad came into the ladies with his wee girl. Nobody intervened, nobody asked him to leave, etc…so convention isn’t really always there.

These moments have affirmed my view that I don’t care, personally, about biological sex segregation in these types of space.

These are just my opinions - that’s what this thread is about. I’m not trying to convince anyone to hold my views. We are all entitled to our own feelings. I’m not saying how this should influence laws, because not everyone feels the way I do, I’m just stating my feelings on the matter.

At the moment there's still a strong social concensus that men and women require single-sex facilities. Not so long ago an elderly friend and her companion kicked up a huge fuss when a bloke with a full beard walked into the Ladies in their local M&S and he was forced to retreat. M&S staff thanked them for kicking up a stink because they felt management wouldn't have supported them intervening. If the law changes and everything becomes mixed sex it'll be the women who object who'll be taken away in a police car and not the men.

I would put my puny little fists up on behalf of any transman/non-binary identifying woman who got harassed for using a female toilet or changing room, whether or not they want the support of the likes of me. I hope my husband and son would step up if they saw a transwoman getting abused in a male space. But males, however they identify, can keep the fuck out of women's toilets, changing rooms, and all our other stuff too.

It’s happened to me a couple of times and I found it deeply unsettling.

Once I was in a restaurant in the West End and a man (he clearly hadn’t undergone any kind of hormone treatment or whatever) wearing a very skimpy dress was doing his make-up in the communal area of a very small women’s bathroom. It felt like such a blatant display of his fetish. My DD was massively creeped out by it and I just felt like it was such a pisstake of women’s safety and dignity.

But, y’know, Owen Jones is fine with it, so it’s OK.

I'd consider any man deliberately using female only spaces as a threat, as he is already choosing to ignore women's boundaries.

All those men aggressively pushing this attack on women's right to spaces free from men should have their hard drives checked.

To those who don't care about toilets because of cubicles, are you aware of voyerism?
Women and girls being victims of being filmed on smartphones or hidden cameras placed by men.
Fetishistic men wanking on toilet seats?
Digging though sanpro bins?
Is it ok because you can't see them?

Can’t support it. Any decent man will know that going into a woman’s space like a toilet or a changing room is seen as a threatening and negative action by many women. So decent men don’t do it.

Which begs the question who are the men who choose to invade womens spaces, why are they doing it and what do they get out of intimidating women like this. Three questions, sorry!

No.

this: Ask yourself who benefits from the destruction of social norms?

Why do we bother having laws against murder? People do it anyway.

I also dislike the way many women (including me) feel we somehow have to justify our view by explaining that we once had a nasty experience with a man in a women's toilet or wherever.

I'm quite happy to relate my experience of station-toilet-perve on here but I dont want to have to go into all that every time I say I don't want men in women's spaces, e.g. at work.

Just "no" is enough.

This, if you're generally scared of predatory individuals surely having one open plan space would be safer as theirs no where to hide. You would also be surrounded by 99.9999% of individuals who aren't.