Feeling really low after being honest

[Notfeelingitwasworthit]

Training today. Gender identity. I was dreading it. Just keep your head down, I thought, don't say anything.
Then the subject of safe spaces came up and the presenter (they/them) said well it's actually not a problem at all, there are no statistics which show that sexual offences occur on hospital wards or in domestic abuse shelters and the other women are also really cool with it so it's not a problem at all!
I just said that this wasn't really accurate, we know women don't report sexual assaults or inappropriate behaviour, especially not if they think they're going to be labelled as transphobic, and women are constantly told to put up and shut up, so that labelled with the fear of being labelled a bigot OF COURSE won't mean they answer truthfully.
Obviously I was set upon. I tried to stand my ground but people kept going. Not just to my face but with snide comments throughout the rest of the day. I would join a room, everyone would stop talking. Even my closest contacts said 'well maybe you just shouldn't say it' and 'they do have a point'.

It just feels so lonely. It feels like you have a choice between being true to what you believe and having friends. Two of my closet friends would disown me if they knew.
Do I have to lie forever?

You're right, they're wrong, and i know that that doesn't help how you feel tonight.
You're right, and you're not alone

They did exactly what you said would happen. Take heart. You are holding up the mirror but it is heavy

@MarieDeGournay I'm just so frustrated, can no one else see it? I was told that it was my 'privilege' as a ciswoman. I mean, what fucking privilege? How are abused women in a shelter in any bloody position of power due to being 'ciswomen'? Ah yes Sharon who was raped by her stepdad and then entered into marriage only to be physically abused and raped by him, Ah yes what a beautiful powerful position to be in, to be born with a vagina!

What a horrible experience. I think you were brave. Have a virtual hug.

I'm seeing two friends tomorrow and I won't say anything even though they have said mildly GC things in the past. But if they say something actually incorrect I might have to, as you did.

With friends, does it help to just see it as privacy rather than lying? I don't say anything about religion to my brother even though he's very religious and I'm an atheist, we just keep our views private.

I’m so sorry you had to deal with this…maybe you could show them the article about the ‘woman’ arrested after penetrating kids from today; despite it never happening…
i think most normal people feel like you but about 10 % are brainwashed Twaw and nothing you say will ever ever resonate so there is no point trying.

Just read your update post - leftie brainwashed men are the absolute worst; from the position of protecting the poor victimised oppressed TW in which they don’t see any incongruity, so they are smug and self righteous.

Firstly, give yourself the credit you deserve for being incredibly brave.

And I promise you that many people in the room agreed with you: they just didn't have your courage. Most people who were shitty to you were probably doing it not because they disagreed, but because they are scared. It's siding with the bully, so that they don't pick on you.

Well done for standing your ground. You are right, and you stand for the truth. It really is that simple.

I'd like to thank you for being brave enough to speak out. It's no small thing to raise your head above the parapet. You sound like someone I'd like to be friends with as I value honesty very highly 🙂

God don't start showing them articles. They don't want to hear it. They know which group they want to be in. Knowing stuff is not going to help them stay in the 'right' group.

Let time pass.

OP, you should be proud of your courage and honesty. You’re surrounded by toadies fawning on the people in power. You did good work, by giving correct information to counter the lies that were being handed out. Many of your colleagues will have listened even though they didn’t dare speak up.

Luckily the law is now on your side and if you get any bullying you can point out you now have the right to express your views. Maya Forstater’s case established that gender critical views are protected under the 2010 Equality Act.

Meanwhile, I hope the rudeness you encountered today doesn’t ruin your weekend xx

It's like all radical ideologies that take hold of a society - from religious fanaticism to the Cultural Revolution. Maybe 5% of people who go along with it are genuine true believers, another 20% have some doubts but are basically on board, and the rest are just followers who fall away as soon as it's no longer expedient to follow.

@Ofcourseshecan it has a bit to be honest. I live with my kids and no other adults. I sometimes feel like it's such a lonely position. Why can't I just go along with it?
I just want to shout ' don't you see what they're doing? They didn't want to be us when we didn't have shit? When we were housewives or chattel or sold into marriages? Now they want to be us, because we finally have a bit of power'

I bet you sowed some seeds today - a few people now are thinking a little differently or feeling a little differently, & a little closer than they were before you spoke to facing up to these issues & speaking up about them. Or, if they pushed what you said to the back of their minds, the next headline they see or concern they hear, your words may come back to them. Little drops, all adding up over time. You were really brave. Thank you.

Well done OP. I guarantee you weren't the only one there who can see. But sadly you were the only one brave enough to voice it. People are now so afraid of repercussions, particularly in the workplace that they are choosing the "safer" side. Just stand firm.

I think you’ve been very brave and I would be tempted to point out to this group that they’re making your point for you. If women are bullied into acquiescence, how do you know if they consent or not?

I don’t think you will have to lie forever, by the way. When this subject comes up in conversation (which is not very often), I have been brief but truthful with several people I trust.

No one has disowned me yet - not the friend who has worked closely with LGBT service users in the past, not my relative with pronouns in her email signature, not my public sector colleagues in my previous role… Not one of them actually disagreed with me. Probably because my views aren’t extreme at all - in fact they were mainstream ten years ago, before a vocal minority decided that any degree of disagreement equalled hatred.

I think it suits peoples narrative to believe TWAW. Men don't give a shit, it's one less man to compete with for jobs, other women on the whole don't care about women with complex sexual trauma or who end up in psychiatric hospitals or shelters.

You were brave and you were honest. And you were right. I wish more people would speak up.

I'm being bullied by a couple of LGBT+ activists at work for bringing up child safe guarding and the Interim Cass Revew in relation to trans identifying children. Others agree and messaged me privately but didn't back me up when I spoke.

Apparently, only a 'phobia' could be the reason for my concerns about LGB, autistic and Looked After Children being over-represented at GIDS. 🙄

It's very wearing to deal with ideologues (and useful idiots) but, as a gay male colleague said to me, when I got really down about it all: "You're right and you'd feel worse if you said nothing."

Thank you for saying something. 💐

I think that's almost right, except that they don't really believe that TWAW. It suits them to pretend that they do.

I feel for you OP - but having read a lot of these threads I think when you look at all the YouGov surveys on trans issues it is men who are far more gender critical (on average) than women. So the posts here about men not giving a shit are just not true (well, at least in the sense that more men appear to give a shit than women unfortunately)

Question: Is it legal to have these type of courses due to the impact on those who may have gender critical views? If the Forestater ruling is all about having a reasonable belief worthy of respect in a democratic society, how can courses which create a culture of fear and encourage other members of staff to bully, harass and shun members of staff who express views that are gender critical?

If this is all about reasonable beliefs and a duty to uphold that as a concept in the workplace, surely this means anything that might create a hostile environment, risks an employee ending up taking them to court over this for bullying and harassment at work and there being more constructive dismissal cases?

These type of courses are now a ticking timebomb for any employer who continues with them and doesn't examine the level of bias and the impact on the workforce - indeed the very purpose of these courses is to create a hostile environment for gender critical views, otherwise what is the point of them?

Keep speaking up. There is an inherent problem with these courses. They need to start to be viewed as problematic.

@RedToothBrush
Bang on!
OP write down your account of what happened and happens after, you may need it to prove that these sessions are making the workplace hostile for you.
But well done, you will have made people think. I had a row on insta today and I was also quoted that "no rapes" crap. It's easier to fight back being a keyboard but it did make me depressed.

Then the subject of safe spaces came up and the presenter (they/them) said well it's actually not a problem at all, there are no statistics which show that sexual offences occur on hospital wards or in domestic abuse shelters and the other women are also really cool with it so it's not a problem at all!

Absence of evidence is not evidence of an absence of a problem.

Anyone who talks like this, and uses it to say there isn't a problem is unprofessional and frankly educationally illiterate.

How can you know if there is a problem if sex is not correctly recorded? How does this record people who are self excluding out of fear or religious beliefs? And how does this take into consideration the very low rate of recording of sexual assaults?

For starters.

Things we do know:
Women frequently do not report sexual assaults or rapes because of the traumatic nature of doing so and the low conviction rate. We have plenty of evidence of this problem.

We do know that sexual assaults are higher in facilities where there are mixed changing rooms - the changing village style set up. There is a known problem with voyeur type crimes in these style changing rooms with phone cameras (see South Korea where this is even more problematic)

We know that sexual assaults in NHS wards is a huge problem that's largely not been talked about - there has been a huge scandal when figures were revealed.

We know that patients want single sex wards, but this hasn't happened despite it being something that all the main political parties have pledged to do. Why do men and women want this? For dignity related reasons. So why are they going to feel any different if there's someone in the next bed who is obviously the opposite sex? You can hind this elephant in the room.

This also really isn't taking into consideration how difficult and intimidating women especially vulnerable women (like those who are in domestic abuse shelters) find authority and the complaints system. Many feel it's set up against 'people like them', so don't engage. To say that there is a lack of complaints, comes from a socio-economic blind spot and a place of privilege.

Honestly if you get more shit from colleagues go to a manager - in writing. And remind the of Forstater and say that the quality of the course is dubious to say the least - using above examples and others.

the entire edifice of gender Kool aid BS needs killing with fire and that will only happen if more people such as the OP have the bottle to point out that, in fact, the emperor is stark bollock naked. Well done.

I think that if you feel up to it, you should ask whoever arranged the course had the checked the credibility of the trainer.

You are asking because they made false claims about women never being subjected to violence in what are meant to be single SEX spaces in TW are included.

And it shouldn't be up to you to disprove what they said, but they as the paid professional should be able to validate their assertions.

Added to which as they (the employer and hirer of the trainer) must be aware of the recent court cases that have said employers are obliged to allow those with gender critical views the same as though who believe in gender identity. And this training denied it.

(I am assuming you are in the UK as the court cases in the UK wont apply in other countries.)

You are concerned at the lack of professionalism of the training and that because the trainer didn't act with equality they have created a hostile work enviroment as their personal beliefs were put forward as the "correct" beliefs and others on the training may have felt because it had been organised by the employer they had to go along with it.

Not sure if this is helpful, but thought it might be pointing out that they have an equal oblligation to you and any others who might have felt unable to talk about why single sex spaces are needed, which aren't just about whether TW have actually been violent, but that they undermine the value of the service eg court case in Scotland.

Hope you have a good weekend and it gives you time ot think it all over.

Most people are sheep. Well done for your bravery.