Feeling really low after being honest

[Notfeelingitwasworthit]

Training today. Gender identity. I was dreading it. Just keep your head down, I thought, don't say anything.
Then the subject of safe spaces came up and the presenter (they/them) said well it's actually not a problem at all, there are no statistics which show that sexual offences occur on hospital wards or in domestic abuse shelters and the other women are also really cool with it so it's not a problem at all!
I just said that this wasn't really accurate, we know women don't report sexual assaults or inappropriate behaviour, especially not if they think they're going to be labelled as transphobic, and women are constantly told to put up and shut up, so that labelled with the fear of being labelled a bigot OF COURSE won't mean they answer truthfully.
Obviously I was set upon. I tried to stand my ground but people kept going. Not just to my face but with snide comments throughout the rest of the day. I would join a room, everyone would stop talking. Even my closest contacts said 'well maybe you just shouldn't say it' and 'they do have a point'.

It just feels so lonely. It feels like you have a choice between being true to what you believe and having friends. Two of my closet friends would disown me if they knew.
Do I have to lie forever?

This is just what I was thinking.

People have different viewpoints on social issues, religion, politics. Some are just a different take, some are stupid, but people have a right to them.

What the heck are workplaces doing having these courses then? Where does an employer get off telling people what to think? They have no moral authority, nor are they better qualified to pontificate about these things than their employees.

I'd go quite far with this, actually, I don't think they should be telling people about race or sexism or less controversial things either. They can tell people how they are meant to behave in the workplace, or to clients and service users. And what the goal of the policies are. But they should not be telling people what to think, it's not the role of a workplace.

I have strayed into this thread and am finding it fascinating how unanimous the support for OP is. Was this posted in a special section of mumsnet or is it a genuine cross-section of mumsnetters’ views?

I am still trying to work out what I think about the whole trans thing. However, I do have some conclusions already:

1. People who want to transition gender are doing it because they are unhappy in themselves, not because they are seeking to regain the power that men have lost. That would be a ridiculous way to regain power, even if men actually have lost it. Most men wouldn’t be seen dead posing as a woman. You would need to be genuinely drawn to femininity (whatever that is) to live that way.

2. I like the out-of-the-box thinking which says we don’t have to stick to what category other people tell us we have to be in. We should all be free and not have to conform. (I don’t want to be expected to be ladylike or chaste just because I’m female).

3. On the other hand, it seems a backwards step to ascribe specific characteristics to one gender (ladylike, dresses, lipstick) which, if you’re the other gender, you can only embrace by switching. There should be space in both genders for anything and everything and nobody should bat an eyelid.

4)One person’s freedom should not restrict another person’s freedom. Women should definitely have safe spaces if they want them, although I’m not convinced that the vulnerable people transitioning are usually much of a threat. In prisons, perhaps, yes, but that’s because of the type of people who go to prison. It just seems really unlikely. However, people in this thread are quoting examples of where this has happened so it seems there’s more for me to find out about here.

5. I was very surprised when I learnt that feminists were not supportive of trans people being accepted on their own terms. It seems to me we have been fighting for equal freedoms for so long that, when we see someone else doing the same thing, we should empathise and be supportive, rather than pull the drawbridge up after us. I take the view that if people SAY something is making them unhappy, our first instinct should be to believe them, even if we’ve experienced nothing like it ourselves.

6. it is difficult to strike the balance between being kind and polite and not rudely undermining somebody who strongly feels the need to identify against their sex and, at the same time, having freedom of speech and not being obliged to deny realities.

7. I think the whole area is quite big. I reached a conclusion about sport - that, yes, trans involvement in women’s sport should be restricted by using very specific rules (otherwise it would soon reach the point where cis women wouldn’t bother competing because there would be no point, as I can imagine a situation where trans women, with no malicious intent, were drawn to sport because they would see it as an area where they could excel). I think we need to address each individual point (eg changing rooms) on its merits in the same way, rather than simply being “for” or “against” transitioning. It’s all quite new and we are finding our way.

@Minglingpringle it's on the Feminism: Sex & gender discussions board, otherwise known as the naughty step!

otherwise it would soon reach the point where cis women wouldn’t bother competing because there would be no point,

There's no such thing as "cis". It's meaningless in group jargon that only makes sense when you adopt gender identity ideology as a belief.

Interesting that although "not understanding" gender critical feminism because you apparently haven't come across it before you know this jargon that 99% of people don't use.

I have strayed into this thread and am finding it fascinating how unanimous the support for OP is.

I find it fascinating how you clearly know males and females aren't the same yet take it as read that some males should be treated as women. On what basis?

1) People who want to transition gender are doing it because they are unhappy in themselves

Why should the feelings of unhappy males be more important than women's feelings, our privacy, dignity and safety?

@Minglingpringle

I think you have a lot to learn. The vast majority of transwomen are hetrosexual males who have no surgery and take no drugs. It is a paraphillia where they get a sexual thrill seeing themselves as women. So I would take issue with your assertion that they do it to alleviate unhappiness. That might apply to the tiny minority of old school homosexual transsexuals but for the hetrosexual transwomen it is in all probability a kink.

I am intrigued that this view of poor harmless individuals still persists despite the absolute mountain of evidence that things are very different now.

There is a thread titled something like "this never happens" which has a running collection of all the things we are told just don't happen because: poor, vulnerable, misunderstood transwomen!

When actually, they are showing the worst behaviour of the male sex.

Also, really annoyingly, my updated spell check will no accept transwomen and keeps wanting to change it to trans women

Not happy about this, transwomen are a subset of men, not women.

@Minglingpringle

Welcome to the thread and indeed the Feminism:Sex & Gender board. You are me about 5 years ago!

Keep reading and asking questions. And most importantly, listening and contemplating the responses. It’s a fascinating topic and affects so many areas of life.

In what respects are men who threaten women and say things like terfs die and harass them and dox them and get them kicked out of jobs in a mob mentality, really vulnerable?

In what respects are men who have powerful lobby groups who have captured most corporate companies and public sector organisations vulnerable?

In comparison to say, a woman wanting single sex rape crisis help and domestic abuse shelters - who can't get funding without including men in every scenario?

Please read up. The trope about the most vulnerable in society being trans is a load of utter bollocks.

Methinks the new fresh poster is (deliberately?) not understanding what being Gender Critical means.

Aside from the bullying and marginalisation you suffered, the trainer was fundamentally wrong in what they said about no evidence. There's plenty of evidence of women being assaulted by transwomen in single sex spaces, including hospital wards, changing rooms etc. Have a look at the Sex Matters site if you want to gather evidence. If anyone repeats this bullshit ask them for their sources.

Gender ideology is a faith based practice and it's adherents are generally unquestioning zealots. Fortunately I largely manage to avoid them in my day to day life, not sure I could cope in your working environment.

There needs to be a way to hold companies and training courses to account

It’s not right and their needs to be an avenue to stand against it

@Minglingpringle

The long running thread "it will never happens."

It will never happen - resource thread. www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3348290-It-will-never-happen-resource-thread

Posters have stopped collecting examples as there's so many.

Reduxx was set up by several investigative journalists to investigate and record incidents whereby both men pretending to be trans have committed crimes, mostly sexual or murder, or individuals who have transitioned have committed such crimes.

reduxx.info/

The safeguarding issues around this topic are much bigger than the aspect of single sex spaces such as toilets and hospital wards.

The other reason why so many women are drawing clear boundaries around this is that children are transitioning due to what is now more of a trend, which appears to become genuine distress, thanks to the endless social media and charity indoctrination, and then regretting it. And being physically harmed. Especially via puberty blockers which have not been properly tested.

There is a rapidly growing number of detransitioners who have had medical intervention which is irreversible.

Search the terms on mumsnet and Twitter and you'll find many people speaking out about it.

This is a film from the perspectives of young women who've detransitioned.

And another one:

Daisy who is the first woman featured posted on Twitter this weekend about the deep pain she has being a mother unable to breastfeed.

This is the most recent, extremely painful and forensic documentary which wholly looks at the male perspective, with detransitioners who are male and through they were female. It is very good at exploring where the pain they had really came from. Some were groomed by older trans women in real life and online.

Some have had major surgeries and suffer extreme pain and incontinence.

It's worth considering whether the "kindness" and lack of challenge that perhaps you feel we can afford these young troubled men is really that kind?

Well done @Notfeelingitwasworthit .

The more brave female voices speak out on this the better.

Take the advice of others and make a few written notes of what happened and keep going.

How is work a few days on op?

Just remember your thread has helped other women think of good questions should they be in the same thing

You have really helped, I hope you are feeling a bit better

@EasternStandard it's ok, I don't work directly with anyone who I was on the training with. I feel sad that it put a downer on my weekend.

I take the view that if people SAY something is making them unhappy, our first instinct should be to believe them

OK, Mingle. My student daughter is very unhappy at being expected to share female loos at uni with males. Do you believe her?

Heck, some men are unhappy I was educated and have a job which they now can't get. And I absolutely believe them.
What next?

Loads of examples from women on here. Yes let’s believe them

It’s a famous word.

The bit you quote there didn’t say that. I was saying how interesting it was that there was so much unanimity and I wondered if this was the overwhelming feeling of mumsnetters or if you are all a self-selecting group.

I didn’t say they should. I said nobody’s freedoms should restrict another person’s freedoms.

Famous or not it's not one that the overwhelming majority of women on this board use, or like as it's not necessary. Woman. That's all you need as women are women. Cis women makes it seem we are a subset of women, the other subset being transwomen. But as they are actually men just the word woman will do for us actual women.

That’s an interesting idea. Is there any evidence for it?

Anything I’ve ever watched or read about young people who want to transition has focused on the painful journey they’re going through. But I can’t claim to have intimate knowledge of everyone’s motivations.