Andrew Doyle

[MalagaNights]

Anyone been following this on twitter? He's been attacked for calling Debbie Hayton she in an interview.
Some horrible homophobic stuff and he has left twitter.

https://x.com/fem_mb/status/1754747745967988982?s=20

The attacks on Janice Turner, Stella Creasey, Kathleen Stock and now Andrew Doyle, people who've been at the forefront of putting themselves on the line over this issue, for years, is so utterly depressing.

Sure, disagree with their decisions make your point but accept good people, really good people in these cases, may make come to a different decision to you sometimes. Particularly when it's complex, tricky, and still being worked through.

Some GC feminists are really revealing themselves to be as authoritian as the TRAs.

Ive had an uneasy feeling about this for a while.

Free speech is extremely important, but safeguarding is the priority. Not one of the priorities, the priority.

Does anyone right to free speech override their duty to safeguarding?

If someone's knows that a situation is wrong, and it leads to children and vulnerable adults being hurt, do they still have a right to obscure this with their right to free speech?

If i know that a situation is wrong, am i complicity when i say its a free speech issue, allow others to obscure the truth and just agree to disagree?

Im not saying anyone mentioned here is doing that, but it i think too much emphasis has been placed on individuals rights to say what they want in a safeguarding situation.

Is it possible to call someone with AGP she at the same time as acknowledging that AGP in the classroom has safeguarding implication. Im not sure it is.

That's a brilliant interview with Peter Boghossian RethinkingLife

Zutt I know what you mean, this is very difficult.

The converse is that women's free speech is sometimes very pro-safeguarding. I'm thinking Savile, Rotherham etc - those who want to restrict women's freedom to say certain things are very much anti-safeguarding. So there's no blanket answer.

Men tend to want it all - eg let's say you're a boundary pushing cabaret artist who has nudity in his performance and sexual content. That's fine. But you should accept you can't have a side gig doing Shakespeare in schools or whatever.

And the irony is not lost on me that I'm considering people's free expression rights to use wrong-sex pronouns when we don't have the free-expression right to use correct-sex pronouns

So many people need to put safeguarding first and 'children aren't adults' first.

I suppose just as no one is a free speech absolutist when it comes to it, no one is a safeguarding absolutist either. Eg just banning men from working in schools.

The thing that makes me both sad and angry about all this is that DH must be absolutely loving it. No wonder Tinsel is so blunt speaking. Why can I see what intelligent people like Doyle cant. The manipulation actually makes me feel ill.

Of course Andrew Doyle can have pronoun usage to come under the free-speech banner. I'm sure it does, currently.

So I don't really understand the issue.

Have at it.

And people can respond by pointing out that she pronouns for AGP men is part of the fetish, and you are participating in it. Possibly unwittingly, but it can't be unwitting for long, when everyone keeps pointing it out.

And we can take it from there.

Let's talk about whether you agree. Let's talk about whether you recognise it as a fetish that requires public participation. Let's talk about whether boundary violation is part of it. Let's talk about the safeguarding issue.

This is the beginning of the chapter. It's not the end of the book.

What is the point of discussing whether a teacher should be sacked from a teaching job effectively because they are trans?

There is not the remotest scintilla of a microscopic chance of that ever becoming lawful in any future time that we can see. And yet on Twitter right now I'm seeing people wasting time on this and berating anyone who disagrees.

They're not wanting someone not to teach if they're trans, they wanting someone not to teach if they're practising their fetish in school.

If trans means 'I have a public sexual fetish', then absolutely it must be addressed.

This is the beginning of the conversation. It's not the end.

What is the point of discussing whether a teacher should be sacked from a teaching job effectively because they are trans?

Nobody should be sacked for being trans. However if they're insisting that children or teenagers participate in their fetish, they need retraining about safeguarding and the boundaries of their role.

What, precisely, do you think should happen to teacher who admits to a public 'sissy fetish' that he practices in school?

Do you think the kids should just get on with it?

I regularly read the X posts of several of the people under discussion here, and I have never before seen that 'Waldo' in any of them. Doesn't mean that the person or bot wouldn't have been commenting earlier, but I never saw evidence of that. I often look at the profiles of people posting nasty comments when I am bored, to learn how to place them into the ideological map in my mind (are the MRAs, extremist religious conservatives, trad wives, feminists of various sorts, various types of activists, possibly teens liking to cause havoc etc.). So I think I would have checked on homophobic opinions, too.

Which brings me to my point which is that there are many agents provocateur on X/Twitter, and not only when it comes to this particular topic, and it makes sense to treat things with some skepticism.

And people who would like nothing more than to discredit the gender critical viewpoint, by aligning it with far right attitudes.

I mean wasnt billy bragg involved in showing something to Andrew Doyle? Right there is your total lack of credibility.

Which brings me to my point which is that there are many agents provocateur on X/Twitter, and not only when it comes to this particular topic, and it makes sense to treat things with some skepticism.

Yes! I don't know how people on TwiX navigate the bots, TwiXers looking for a fight, and the evil algorithms.

It's like expecting someone to wonder into [insert any punitive scene in Saw] and emerge unscathed. In security terms, I'd try to box TweXs into something as air-gapped as possible from my understanding of the rest of my life. I realise that's largely unrealistic for prominent people and those with a job that requires media presence.

Nothing.

If we're told that all transwomen are AGP then that effectively means all transwomen being barred from teaching.

I don't think the public will remotely understand why that is not transphobic. I certainly don't.

So if it was true that the word transwoman could just be a name for men who have a public sexual fetish, you still think they should be able to display it in Schools??

I didn't say anything about barring them. I don't know why you're making things up. I think they need to do their fetish outside work. If they are absolutely compelled to involve pupils in their fetish, they need training to understand why forcing non consenting people to participate (and pupils are unable to consent) is not appropriate for teaching. That's not banning them from teaching, it's maintaining the same standards that apply to all teachers.

RethinkingLife
''Which brings me to my point which is that there are many agents provocateur on X/Twitter, and not only when it comes to this particular topic, and it makes sense to treat things with some skepticism.''

''Yes! I don't know how people on TwiX navigate the bots, TwiXers looking for a fight, and the evil algorithms.''

Its not foolproof but the algorithms can help - if you are unsure about a user, scroll down their main feed to the bit where Twitter suggests similar accounts to follow.

Speaking of the unnavigability of X, found the initial thread of Duncan being sensible, via PC, not the godawful orgami nesting of the app.

Thanks, genderwoo.

Are there any screenshots of the tweets Andrew is talking about? (Apart from those already posted on here)

Other than the 4 anons I previously attached (white images, as not my caps), I remember this being included as evidence of homophobia alongside a different cap of anotrher Xr's comment. Anna Slatz of Reduxx wrote it in 2023. It criticises a tiktoker, Zack Willmore a 19 year old living with a HIV diagnosis. It's not empathetic, for sure.

Right. Thank you. He doesn't seem like a gender critical feminist, either.

Oh, my bad phrasing. Anna Slatz is the commenter on Zach's lifestyle, and she is a prominent Canadian GC, so it is a catch, as that was seen as a homophobic remark. However, it was not one Doyle himself added to the thread.

These original X thread(s) disappeared, but sweeping accusations* by others remain. There's an element of opportunism about that, IMO.

We are not effectively being told that all transwomen are anything. Quite the opposite. TW are as diverse as any other group.

We know that DH has AGP because of the articles, book and interviews done over the years. DH is an actual teacher. This is not a hypothetical situation.