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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Andrew Doyle

265 replies

MalagaNights · 06/02/2024 19:14

Anyone been following this on twitter? He's been attacked for calling Debbie Hayton she in an interview.
Some horrible homophobic stuff and he has left twitter.

https://x.com/fem_mb/status/1754747745967988982?s=20

The attacks on Janice Turner, Stella Creasey, Kathleen Stock and now Andrew Doyle, people who've been at the forefront of putting themselves on the line over this issue, for years, is so utterly depressing.

Sure, disagree with their decisions make your point but accept good people, really good people in these cases, may make come to a different decision to you sometimes. Particularly when it's complex, tricky, and still being worked through.

Some GC feminists are really revealing themselves to be as authoritian as the TRAs.

https://x.com/fem_mb/status/1754747745967988982?s=20

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ZuttZeVootEeeVo · 07/02/2024 16:20

MalagaNights · 07/02/2024 16:15

AD has been extrenly supportive to the GC for years.
He frequently and repatedley addresses this issue on his weekly show, has women on there who've been cancelled and gets shit from TRAs for it.

I thought he was speaking out because he believed it, not because of a favour to women?

TinselAngel · 07/02/2024 16:23

Datun · 07/02/2024 15:55

Honestly, I've said the words sexual fetish so much over the last couple of days that I feel like I'm almost in danger of acquiring one through osmosis.

Which one do you fancy? I'm thinking one to do with cleaning so it makes housework more enjoyable.

MalagaNights · 07/02/2024 16:25

ZuttZeVootEeeVo · 07/02/2024 16:20

I thought he was speaking out because he believed it, not because of a favour to women?

Don't be daft. They're not mutually exclusive.

He beleives it is right to challenge ideology which harms women.

Which is good for women.

I didn't say favour you did.

OP posts:
StephanieSuperpowers · 07/02/2024 16:30

TinselAngel · 07/02/2024 16:23

Which one do you fancy? I'm thinking one to do with cleaning so it makes housework more enjoyable.

Nobody has that fetish or women wouldn't be so worn down everywhere you look :- (

LenaLamont · 07/02/2024 16:43

SaffronSpice · 07/02/2024 15:56

I don't see why anyone gets their knickers in a knot over other peo-ple's language choices.

So you have no problem with ERCC telling rape victims that they all their staff are women and they will be seen by a woman, when they know full well that they may well find a man in front of them?

Don't be daft. Language in the law is crucial and must be crystal clear.

The stupid GRA and its "legal fiction" of changing legal sex is a disaster and should be repealed. Single sex services and spaces are crucial for women, and no one should have her reality denied. (See also the shit-show at Edinburgh Rape Crisis Centre)

That's completely different to policing how individuals refer to others in the third person.

Plenty of absolute GC heroes (including Maya and Janice) have said they use prefered pronouns in their jobs. I maintain that's their choice and I can respectfully disagree; admiring and appreciating them doesn't mean I support and endorse every decision they have or will make.

This isn't a cult.

I do think Datun is right about women finding it hard to grasp the whole sexual thrill thing of AGP. I do find it almost impossible to actually believe someone gets a sexual thrill out of being referred to as the opposite sex, because it's such a monumentally stupid thing to get a frisson about. Some blokes are so bloody weird it beggars belief.

LenaLamont · 07/02/2024 16:46

TinselAngel · 07/02/2024 16:23

Which one do you fancy? I'm thinking one to do with cleaning so it makes housework more enjoyable.

OOO, I didn't know there was one for that! Can I have it?

Actually, scratch that - can the people I live with have it?

BigPepperPerson · 07/02/2024 16:48

LenaLamont · 07/02/2024 15:52

I don't see why anyone gets their knickers in a knot over other peo-ple's language choices.

I don't call Hayton a She, because the fact he's male is relevant to whatever I'm saying about it, generally. Janice Turner and Andrew Doylre have made a different choice while doing articles/interviews with Hayton. That's fine - I don't think either has suddenly become confused over Hayton's sex. They are observing a polite fiction.

Who am I to decide for others what language is most appropriate for them t use in every circumstance?

Wer don't have to agree on every minute detail of every issue to work together.

please don't minimise something that sends a chill down my spine!
I have a teenage daughter- I will damn well "get my knickers in a twist" over any compromise towards fetishistic and misguided men
well-meaning people are opening the door to men like DH- it's both infuriating and terrifying

TinselAngel · 07/02/2024 16:50

I think some of the gay men who are GC came into it as a men's sexual rights issue- ie they became concerned when it looked like they were going to have larping females in their spaces and be pressured to consider them as sexual partners. I recall that guy who said on Twitter that women should raise awareness of the problem by wandering around topless in gay (male) saunas, presumably not caring that's it's not much safer for women to anger gay men than it is for them to anger straight men.

The gay men who have this motivation are the ones who get angry when the feminist agenda gets a bit too close to home- ie criticism of drag, fetishes, "twink" culture or their cross dressing friends (I'm looking at you, Lachlan), and start crying homophobia.

NAGMALT of course. For some it the conversion therapy aspect of transing gay kids and for (less) others it's about women's rights.

Gay men and feminists were always only going to have certain common interests.

Datun · 07/02/2024 17:16

TinselAngel · 07/02/2024 16:23

Which one do you fancy? I'm thinking one to do with cleaning so it makes housework more enjoyable.

An excellent choice, if I may say so.

The only other one I might pick would be washing up. And at least it has the benefit of keeping my hands clean...

ZuttZeVootEeeVo · 07/02/2024 17:17

MalagaNights · 07/02/2024 16:25

Don't be daft. They're not mutually exclusive.

He beleives it is right to challenge ideology which harms women.

Which is good for women.

I didn't say favour you did.

What did you mean when you said "a crap way to treat people who have been good to you."

Speaking up about something he believes in isnt Doyle being good to anyone.

ArabellaScott · 07/02/2024 17:22

This isn't a cult.

It isn't? Well, I'm disappointed. I've been practising my chants and everything.

Datun · 07/02/2024 17:23

LenaLamont · 07/02/2024 16:43

Don't be daft. Language in the law is crucial and must be crystal clear.

The stupid GRA and its "legal fiction" of changing legal sex is a disaster and should be repealed. Single sex services and spaces are crucial for women, and no one should have her reality denied. (See also the shit-show at Edinburgh Rape Crisis Centre)

That's completely different to policing how individuals refer to others in the third person.

Plenty of absolute GC heroes (including Maya and Janice) have said they use prefered pronouns in their jobs. I maintain that's their choice and I can respectfully disagree; admiring and appreciating them doesn't mean I support and endorse every decision they have or will make.

This isn't a cult.

I do think Datun is right about women finding it hard to grasp the whole sexual thrill thing of AGP. I do find it almost impossible to actually believe someone gets a sexual thrill out of being referred to as the opposite sex, because it's such a monumentally stupid thing to get a frisson about. Some blokes are so bloody weird it beggars belief.

Someone sent me a thing once called things men fuck, or something like that.

Honest to God, once you've read that, nothing would surprise you about men's sex drive and the lengths they will go to to satisfy it.

The other reason why I think this particular incident has got so many women up in arms is because it's Debbie Hayton. He's gone out of his way to sanitise the fetish.

If Janice Turner was interviewing some cheaply bewigged, middle-aged chap in fishnets and garters like, say, that Freda person who got drunk and flashed their crotch next to Helen Joyce on the telly, would she still feel the need to respect pronouns?

ZuttZeVootEeeVo · 07/02/2024 17:24

We are heading for a free speech solution - people are free to call men 'she' or 'he'.

That seems fine as long as we pretend that the orginal problem was prefered pronouns and not men with fetishes.

Great job, lads.

MalagaNights · 07/02/2024 17:31

ZuttZeVootEeeVo · 07/02/2024 17:17

What did you mean when you said "a crap way to treat people who have been good to you."

Speaking up about something he believes in isnt Doyle being good to anyone.

Yes it is when staying quiet would mean leaving people to struggle unsupported..

Of course when you believe something, and think it's the right thing to do to speak up as people are being harmed, and yuo do that, despite it having negative consequenecs for you, (and most people knowing it's right buut syaing quiet anyway) you can be described as being good to the people who speaking up helps?

I'm not sure why you want to argue this point so exhaustively, to prove AD hasn't been good to women? Why?
To prove it's been good for women but that's just a lucky outcoe of him platforming all the cancelleed women? Weird.

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MalagaNights · 07/02/2024 17:34

We are heading for a free speech solution - people are free to call men 'she' or 'he'.

I'm happy with that if we can still argue vehenently that it's not a good idea to call men she.
But we don't hate and hound people who generally seem like good eggs but who occasionally call a man she.

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Datun · 07/02/2024 17:42

ZuttZeVootEeeVo · 07/02/2024 17:24

We are heading for a free speech solution - people are free to call men 'she' or 'he'.

That seems fine as long as we pretend that the orginal problem was prefered pronouns and not men with fetishes.

Great job, lads.

Indeed. I'm happy to accept that people can call an AGP he or she, as long as we all understand that by calling him she, you are getting him aroused.

And I will ask you why you are doing it and point out it's a safeguarding failure.

TooBigForMyBoots · 07/02/2024 17:44

Much has been written on this forum about Larping, Cosplay, mimicry and the fetish that is AGP.

Surely there can be no greater example of this than getting the few people who speak out to fawn over you and call you she/her in the press? And then have them scold or insult the women and children's rights activists who object. Become your flying monkeys and useful idiots.

RethinkingLife · 07/02/2024 17:50

But we don't hate and hound people

I don't.

I can't control the instinctive visceral reaction that I have to people who've had a profound adverse impact on my life but I keep it to myself and work around it.

There's no way that I can know, but I should think a number of posters here might share similar experiences and strategies. None of these means that they practise, endorse or condone 'hate and hound' as a way of engaging with others. In a general sense, that goes for bad eggs as much as good eggs.

I can't come up with a phrase to indicate that I write as a general principle here and nothing relates to specific individuals - but that's what I intend (the general).

MalagaNights · 07/02/2024 17:59

Datun · 07/02/2024 17:42

Indeed. I'm happy to accept that people can call an AGP he or she, as long as we all understand that by calling him she, you are getting him aroused.

And I will ask you why you are doing it and point out it's a safeguarding failure.

What I find odd about this is that in many other ongoing discussions I'm involved in on here, GC feminists say they're fine with men wearing women's clothes. As it's just clothes.

But in most if not all of these cases I suspect it's agp motivated and the thrill is wearing those clothes in public.

AGP isn't just about the pronouns, it's also if not more about the clothes and feminine perfroming in public. Yet this is fine? As long as we don't use pronouns?

I think some feminsits seesm to think men wearing women's clothes isn't an agp thing it's just a lovely gender noncofrming fasion choice.

But if public agp is a safeguarding issue men in women's clothes is.

OP posts:
BigPepperPerson · 07/02/2024 18:00

ZuttZeVootEeeVo · 07/02/2024 17:24

We are heading for a free speech solution - people are free to call men 'she' or 'he'.

That seems fine as long as we pretend that the orginal problem was prefered pronouns and not men with fetishes.

Great job, lads.

Indeed

AlisonDonut · 07/02/2024 18:03

OP...Kit and Edie go into a deep dive into the differences between different men who wear differences if you really want to think about it.

nepeta · 07/02/2024 18:03

Social media debates are confusing, because some part of me, at least, still thinks of them in the same terms as debates in the physical world where we know the participants and have a rough idea of how many other are on each side of the debate, how many just ignore the debate, how many get their popcorn out to enjoy watching it, and so on.

But the online world is not the same. For one thing, we have no idea about how many people are watching the debate (if any are), how many agree with one side or the other (because there are strong incentives to avoid expressing support for an opinion which gets you cancelled), and with some obvious exceptions about public people, we have no idea if we are listening to the somewhat deranged speaker at a street corner, warning us about the oncoming apocalypse or someone who actually has credentials about the topic that is debated.

We don't know how many participants are bots, how many are fifteen-year olds getting a kick from just destroying everything, how many are paid operatives of foreign powers, how many are the hand puppets of one of the debaters, and so on.

We don't really know what Twix (or X or Twitter) thinks about anything (it doesn't think as it's not alive), because most people there don't follow, say, the gender identity debates, and we don't know if people actually are, say, gender criticals when they state that they are, so we don't even know what some imaginary unit called 'the gender criticals' might think.

But somehow it all feels as if the whole world is watching, as if large chunks of it are participating, and as if the nasty comments of some odd person do reflect the opinions of multitudes, who by their silence, say, seem to agree with the opposing person's posts. And at the same time everything is opaque, as if we are diving into a dark well where the sharks wait, to smell blood in the waters.

What I'm trying to say is to try to stay skeptical about the meaning of things like this, in terms of attempting to gauge the numbers of people with various beliefs. And, as always, to remember that the social media participants in political topics tend to be more extreme than the voters, and that much of the attention is for the messages of a fairly number of (male) participants, such as famous journalists.

On the actual topic, I am sad that Doyle feeds the need to distance himself from the GC movement. I have also not come across any homophobia by gender critical women in my recent surfing on X.

Datun · 07/02/2024 18:41

MalagaNights · 07/02/2024 17:59

What I find odd about this is that in many other ongoing discussions I'm involved in on here, GC feminists say they're fine with men wearing women's clothes. As it's just clothes.

But in most if not all of these cases I suspect it's agp motivated and the thrill is wearing those clothes in public.

AGP isn't just about the pronouns, it's also if not more about the clothes and feminine perfroming in public. Yet this is fine? As long as we don't use pronouns?

I think some feminsits seesm to think men wearing women's clothes isn't an agp thing it's just a lovely gender noncofrming fasion choice.

But if public agp is a safeguarding issue men in women's clothes is.

People say it's fine for men to wear 'women's clothes', to endorse gender non-conformity. It's not fine to wear women's clothes, if you're saying you're a woman. (apart from the fact that it's actually gender conformity).

One's a fetish, one's just clothes.

But I agree, it's not always easy to tell the difference. Although I genuinely think most women who are up to speed probably can.

Woman2023 · 07/02/2024 21:23

I think the "wear what you want" comments were made assuming men would wear reasonably decent clothes in public and not false breasts.

The demand to be seen as some sort of woman is a huge indicator the man is fulfilling a fantasy rather than just going about his business in a dress.

SaffronSpice · 07/02/2024 21:41

That's completely different to policing how individuals refer to others in the third person.

How is it completely different for an ERCC employee to tell an abused woman that the support worker is a woman compared to saying “your support worker is Susan, she will meet you her room” when in both cases it is a male?