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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Andrew Doyle

265 replies

MalagaNights · 06/02/2024 19:14

Anyone been following this on twitter? He's been attacked for calling Debbie Hayton she in an interview.
Some horrible homophobic stuff and he has left twitter.

https://x.com/fem_mb/status/1754747745967988982?s=20

The attacks on Janice Turner, Stella Creasey, Kathleen Stock and now Andrew Doyle, people who've been at the forefront of putting themselves on the line over this issue, for years, is so utterly depressing.

Sure, disagree with their decisions make your point but accept good people, really good people in these cases, may make come to a different decision to you sometimes. Particularly when it's complex, tricky, and still being worked through.

Some GC feminists are really revealing themselves to be as authoritian as the TRAs.

https://x.com/fem_mb/status/1754747745967988982?s=20

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MalagaNights · 07/02/2024 15:17

Datun · 07/02/2024 14:48

It wasn't a rule failure.

It was accommodating a fetish. And the topic of whether she realised it or not, was discussed here at length.

Maya Forstater said on her tribunal that she used preferred pronouns at work.

Many women on here say they use them in their office.

It's really disingenuous to make it about something it's not.

It's about accommodating a man who has specifically told you that doing so arouses him. Whilst at the same time, flatly disagreeing with the entire ideology that he is using to get you to do it!!

And then doubled down on Twitter!

It's not about rules, and purity. It's about bizarre behaviour that's difficult to comprehend.

The rule is: if it's agp you never use preferde pronuns.
That is a GC sacrosanct rule.

I agree with it I just don't think it's sacrosanct and I think there might be reasons some people decide to go against it.

JT used them. She decdied in this case she'd use them. she presumebaly had her reasons. She presumably weighed up various things and went withthis chioce. I don't know why.

But she's agood person who has done more than most on this issue so one decsion you don't unedrstand shouldn't lead to the attacks she got.
same for AD.

It's not them that looks bad over this. Even if a I disagree with their decision.

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MalagaNights · 07/02/2024 15:21

SaffronSpice · 07/02/2024 14:41

Quite. Purists make up their own rules around language based on belief systems and demand everyone follow them.

Pragmatists use language for shared understanding.

Purists say language has to be used in the same way at all times by everyone.

Pragmatsts say diffrent people, diffrent contexts, free choice, may result in different language.

Liberals say peole can use whatver languge they please but you can't compel others.

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SaffronSpice · 07/02/2024 15:22

It wasn't a rule failure.

Quite the contrary. The accusation of ‘rule failure ‘ is directed at those who use sex based pronouns. The name calling is directed at those who won’t follow the purity test of calling specific men ‘she ‘.

MalagaNights · 07/02/2024 15:25

SaffronSpice · 07/02/2024 15:22

It wasn't a rule failure.

Quite the contrary. The accusation of ‘rule failure ‘ is directed at those who use sex based pronouns. The name calling is directed at those who won’t follow the purity test of calling specific men ‘she ‘.

That's what's so depressing the rule failure goes both ways now.

The GCs are as zealoty about it as the TRAs.

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SaffronSpice · 07/02/2024 15:26

Purists say language has to be used in the same way at all times by everyone.

No they are the ones saying that their rules must apply and that under specific circumstances men should be called ‘she’. Depending who they are, this could be all men who identify as women or just some men. Anyone who objects is pilloried as a TERF, bigot, extremist or ultra, or zealot

SaffronSpice · 07/02/2024 15:27

The GCs are as zealoty about it as the TRAs.

Yet more name calling?

MalagaNights · 07/02/2024 15:41

SaffronSpice · 07/02/2024 15:27

The GCs are as zealoty about it as the TRAs.

Yet more name calling?

Yep I'm calling the now self styled 'Ultra' GCs on twitter who have hounded a really good man off twitter zealots.

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Ereshkigalangcleg · 07/02/2024 15:41

They are reclaiming a nasty slur.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 07/02/2024 15:42

Like "domesticated zombies". Didn't we have "trad wives of Farage" on here once? Grin

MalagaNights · 07/02/2024 15:47

"I's really disingenuous to make it about something it's not"

Datun you've accused me of strawmanning and then being disingenuous, when I say my thread is about what I started it as.
You want to discuss pronouns, you want to insist this is the issue I should be discssing.

I don't want to, because I know my position and yours.

I startde a threda because I thought the response to good peole who've made a different decision has been authortarian and zealoty (for yuo @SaffronSpice )

Don't try to insist I rehash the point you want to make, and then call me disingenous because I don't want to it's a bit shit tbh.

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MalagaNights · 07/02/2024 15:52

Twitter may be a shit show but at least on there there are many GC women and men speaking up for AD and the shitty attacks he's had, so as I said I can see more clearly now who I respect.

MN not so much,

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LenaLamont · 07/02/2024 15:52

I don't see why anyone gets their knickers in a knot over other peo-ple's language choices.

I don't call Hayton a She, because the fact he's male is relevant to whatever I'm saying about it, generally. Janice Turner and Andrew Doylre have made a different choice while doing articles/interviews with Hayton. That's fine - I don't think either has suddenly become confused over Hayton's sex. They are observing a polite fiction.

Who am I to decide for others what language is most appropriate for them t use in every circumstance?

Wer don't have to agree on every minute detail of every issue to work together.

DomesticatedZombie · 07/02/2024 15:52

Can confirm I am Ultra.

MalagaNights · 07/02/2024 15:54

LenaLamont · 07/02/2024 15:52

I don't see why anyone gets their knickers in a knot over other peo-ple's language choices.

I don't call Hayton a She, because the fact he's male is relevant to whatever I'm saying about it, generally. Janice Turner and Andrew Doylre have made a different choice while doing articles/interviews with Hayton. That's fine - I don't think either has suddenly become confused over Hayton's sex. They are observing a polite fiction.

Who am I to decide for others what language is most appropriate for them t use in every circumstance?

Wer don't have to agree on every minute detail of every issue to work together.

Bloody hell @LenaLamont don't come in here being reasonable and full of common sense, that ruins all the fun.

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Datun · 07/02/2024 15:55

MalagaNights · 07/02/2024 15:10

Ending with a strawman that people don't deserve to be attacked and hounded if you disagree with them.

It;s not a straw man it's my whole argument all the way through the thread.

You are trying to make me discuss whether prefferde pronuns should ever be used. That's not the issue of the thread and because you can't draw me on it you accse me of strwmanning.

It's sneaky.

For the sake of communication, I'll make it quite clear that I do not agree that people should be attacked or hounded purely because you disagree. You were replying to me. I have not hounded or attacked Janice Turner. I'm not even on Twitter.

People's issue isn't just about pronoun use. Because other people use preferred pronouns. You've said yourself you've no idea why she did it.

We are talking about a 56-year-old man, teaching 11 to 18-year-olds, who, because of his porn habit, believes that the size of a girl's breasts indicates her popularity. He teaches science.

He implemented a policy where his pupils call him Miss and use she pronouns, because it's arousing. And he wears fake breasts in front of them.

He has gone completely public about this!!

None of this is about purity! Or rule breaking or zealotry, ffs.

This is about total bafflement as to why somebody like Janice Turner, who appeared to grasp the entire issue, doesn't get it. Because it wasn't the ipso guidelines, or anything like that. She said it was out of respect.

Although I'm perfectly willing to believe that she doesn't actually get it.

A lot of women really can't quite bring himself to accept that this might just all be about sex.

But in this case, Debbie Hayton himself has confirmed it.

So even if you think people are zealots, or there's a purity spiral, or there are exceptions, or a wide variety of reasons, even then, you still can't think of a reason why Janice Turner did it.

Because it's really fucking important why she did.

I want to know why clever, influential, brilliant writers like her think we need to respect men's public fetishes.

Datun · 07/02/2024 15:55

Honestly, I've said the words sexual fetish so much over the last couple of days that I feel like I'm almost in danger of acquiring one through osmosis.

SaffronSpice · 07/02/2024 15:56

I don't see why anyone gets their knickers in a knot over other peo-ple's language choices.

So you have no problem with ERCC telling rape victims that they all their staff are women and they will be seen by a woman, when they know full well that they may well find a man in front of them?

MalagaNights · 07/02/2024 15:59

Datun · 07/02/2024 15:55

For the sake of communication, I'll make it quite clear that I do not agree that people should be attacked or hounded purely because you disagree. You were replying to me. I have not hounded or attacked Janice Turner. I'm not even on Twitter.

People's issue isn't just about pronoun use. Because other people use preferred pronouns. You've said yourself you've no idea why she did it.

We are talking about a 56-year-old man, teaching 11 to 18-year-olds, who, because of his porn habit, believes that the size of a girl's breasts indicates her popularity. He teaches science.

He implemented a policy where his pupils call him Miss and use she pronouns, because it's arousing. And he wears fake breasts in front of them.

He has gone completely public about this!!

None of this is about purity! Or rule breaking or zealotry, ffs.

This is about total bafflement as to why somebody like Janice Turner, who appeared to grasp the entire issue, doesn't get it. Because it wasn't the ipso guidelines, or anything like that. She said it was out of respect.

Although I'm perfectly willing to believe that she doesn't actually get it.

A lot of women really can't quite bring himself to accept that this might just all be about sex.

But in this case, Debbie Hayton himself has confirmed it.

So even if you think people are zealots, or there's a purity spiral, or there are exceptions, or a wide variety of reasons, even then, you still can't think of a reason why Janice Turner did it.

Because it's really fucking important why she did.

I want to know why clever, influential, brilliant writers like her think we need to respect men's public fetishes.

I don't know why she did it.
I don't know why he did it.

I wish they hadn't it would have been very powerful.

But they don't deserve the hounding they've had for it. That kind of resposne allows for no space for other people's diffrent decisions, and is a crap way to treat people who have been good to you.

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Datun · 07/02/2024 16:02

MalagaNights · 07/02/2024 15:59

I don't know why she did it.
I don't know why he did it.

I wish they hadn't it would have been very powerful.

But they don't deserve the hounding they've had for it. That kind of resposne allows for no space for other people's diffrent decisions, and is a crap way to treat people who have been good to you.

I wish they hadn't it would have been very powerful.

well that's something we can agree on!

StephanieSuperpowers · 07/02/2024 16:07

A lot of women really can't quite bring himself to accept that this might just all be about sex.

I think there's some truth in that. Women don't tend to be frequent flyers through Malaga airport in the way that men do, nor do we tend to have the same compulsion to arrange our lives and relationships around the visits to that inauspicious place to nearly the same extent. It is a completely different worldview and I don't think women like to think about it very much.

ZuttZeVootEeeVo · 07/02/2024 16:07

and is a crap way to treat people who have been good to you.

Eh? Hows he been good to us?

Nobody is above questioning their understanding of safeguarding.

Datun · 07/02/2024 16:08

While I'm speculating as to how much Janice Turner does or doesn't know about AGP, I think I should point out that, until fairly recently, you would be deleted from here immediately, even for mentioning it.

ILikeDungs · 07/02/2024 16:14

I don't know why he did it.

Could it simply have been a pragmatic decision based on past Ofcom investigations into GBNews? If he uses 'she' pronouns he does not trigger complaints from TRAs about his show?

Just a guess since generally AD is very clued up.

MalagaNights · 07/02/2024 16:15

ZuttZeVootEeeVo · 07/02/2024 16:07

and is a crap way to treat people who have been good to you.

Eh? Hows he been good to us?

Nobody is above questioning their understanding of safeguarding.

AD has been extrenly supportive to the GC for years.
He frequently and repatedley addresses this issue on his weekly show, has women on there who've been cancelled and gets shit from TRAs for it.

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ZuttZeVootEeeVo · 07/02/2024 16:17

I do wonder if allowing the term AGP to be used is because of free speech, or that AGP has become an acceptable, sanitised concept.

Maybe lots of pragmatics think of it is just liking yourself a bit too much, rather the idea its a fetish?

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