Janice Turner interview with Debbie Hayton in the Times

[CaptainWarbeck]

Share token link here: Debbie Hayton: the trans woman taking on the trans activists

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/df87fe47-3dd3-4f35-ac48-81f54aeb418f?shareToken=a53b2f201cdd4c204b9009b204cb1ef3

Janice neatly runs through a history of trans issues with Debbie including a discussion of AGP. An excellent read I thought and will get a wide audience as a Saturday Times Magazine article.

I'm really surprised by the vitriol towards Turner and Freeman on here. I think they have been really instrumental in getting gender critical voices to a wider audience.

I also thought the article was well written and interesting. And it says what it needs to without spelling it out. DH wobbling on about tights says more that the pronouns JT used.

I'm confused as to who is reporting posts for deletion, and why? They are being deleted incredibly quickly......as if someone is actively monitoring responses.

What was wrong with Arabella's post above? All she said is it that it takes all sorts of approaches to reach the goal, and to reach different audiences. I'm also struggling to think why an earlier post of mine was deleted?

For me though, it's not so much that they've used preferred pronouns, I can understand why (although for me that's a big no), if you want to do that - fine, but bloody well own it.

My biggest issue is that they have decided to deride other women to justify it. Women, that in my experience, put a lot of effort, heart and money into protecting women's rights. And it is because of those grass roots women and their support that the academics and the writers can openly talk about this - because they know that if need be those anon women will put their hand in their pocket to support.

You know that sometimes your enemy's enemy is your friend. If you focus on goals rather than methods or approaches it can sometimes be easier to advance.

Who is deriding or expressing contempt? I'm confused?

I'm interested in why robust commentary from some quarters is always styled as vitriol. Is this another word that has been undergoing a process of semantic degradation for some time?

NB: I've frequently praised JT's writing skills. I've long acknowledged that we all have our boundary lines for some matters. My experience of the consequences of some choices is plausibly different to that of others who make different choices.

Who is deriding or expressing contempt? I'm confused?

This is about twitter. I hadn't been on there this weekend, so I've no idea of the timeline, but it's a mess right now. Various columnists bit back at people who expressed disquiet with Janice Turner's article.

I also certainly agree it is not right to impose one's fetishes on schoolchildren: we can all agree on that - and the end goal is to roll back from this madness; but I think we also have to accept it is going to be a long haul; it is going to take at least a coupe of decades to fully unravel.

But we don't all agree that men should not impose their fetishes on children.

Janice turner tweeted, speaking of hayton: Even so she is beseiged too by extreme gender critical feminists, some who say she shouldn't be allowed to teach.

I don't believe she's working towards an end position of no AGP men in the classroom, any more than she is subtlety working to expose AGP.

I think shes is attempt to sell AGP as being of no harm if the AGP man knows that he's AGP.

I guess my post was deleted for talking about how Hayton, a self confessed fetishist, is open about being a fetishist, and that's what his books about, but I'm not allowed to say that?

'Debbie' is allowed to use male pronouns for himself, but I'm not.

'Debbie' is allowed to talk about his fetish, but I'm not.

Curious.

I think shes is attempt to sell AGP as being of no harm if the AGP man knows that he's AGP.

Yes, some people are now taking this position.

It's okay for a fetishist to perform his fetish if he tells you about it and he's open about it.

I mean, frankly: No.

Whereas I feel it is an act of unacceptable and oppressive male dominance.

I don't understand how Haytons book has recieved so much media coverage, the daily mail and now the times? Isn't he a bit of an obscure character? It's not as if many know of him, let alone were waiting for his autobiography. He's no Paris Lees thats for sure.

This.

They can be open about it.

And I can be open about my refusal of consent to play games with them. I have no interest in supporting a happy penis purely because I happen to be biologically female. Wtf should I?

I think it is pretty clear that Janice using the term ‘ultra GC’ can be described as derisory. Janice is framing women who are pushing back on this article and the tweets which have claims that show some dissonance in her position as extremists.

It is certainly not her saying every one has a voice that should be heard, it is her framing that she considers ‘those’ women’s views to be extreme and to be derided as such.

It does seem to be that some feminists really are prioritising protecting special male people’s feelings.

ultimately what they really want is to be allowed back in from exile. They don’t want to make a new life with bolshy women trying to pull down the establishment mistakes, what they really want is their old social/academic/journalistic circle to accept them back while allowing them their difference of opinion

I think there's a lot in this, Utopia. Also I'm thinking they want to align themselves with the Labour Party position, or at least demonstrate that they have no right-wing allegiances. I've been disappointed by the patronising, somewhat disingenuous attitudes on display this weekend.

In order for those, particularly Labour, people, who wish to hold reality based views without being smelly or dismissed, it is becoming necessary to monster other women.

By pushing us to one side and labelling us as 'extremist' they have helpfully supported the narrative that 'both sides are bad as each other' and that now they have opened the door, here come the nice grown ups to create sensible middle ground (where the fuck they have been for the past 8 years we won't talk about). I suspect some golden bridging idea is within it.

Its exceptionally ugly really. Particularly since 'middle ground' is a very soggy illusion as anyone who really digs into this discovers immediately, and really unless you plan to try and set it to 'some nice men with certificates who are quite open about wanting to use women in their sex life, with cool girls who are helpful about being used, and continuing to exclude a lot of marginalised and hidden groups of women from any provision at all to permit nice cool mixed sex spaces where women are respectfully pronouning men who are treating them with no respect at all.....'

you will not be able to slide a piece of paper between the good sort of the GC person and the grotty, smelly, awful sort of GC person.

What has really finished Labour for me is exactly this kind of snobbery and classism, and total abandonment of the real principles they once had. Or at least that I thought they had.

And let's face it too, what makes for a grotty smelly kind of GC person as opposed to a good sort of GC person?

It's saying no too much to men.

I'm confused as to who is reporting posts for deletion, and why? They are being deleted incredibly quickly......as if someone is actively monitoring responses.

Debbie Hayton? He used to post on here occasionally.

Just so I know, is your take an official preferred style? I'm eager to be schooled in the art of managing my expression and thought at all times but I wouldn't be comfortable adopting it.
Why would it be? I'm just a random poster, expressing my desire for a more constructive way of dealing with disagreements over issues within the GC sphere than deriding people as "head girls" or "poundshop whatsername", or taking on the most uncharitable interpretation of what they say. The infighting just takes energy away from all the other stuff that needs doing.

I'm startled to learn that I've never made a point about plurality, policy, and law.
And I'd like to say I was startled to learn that you're reading things into what I wrote that weren't actually there, but it's hardly the first time you've demonstrated that on this thread, is it?

I will say for Hayton, they were not the delete and report type; they did actually stay and talk. Without swearing or death threats, civilly. There were occasions where everyone on the thread was aware that Hayton was sharing screenshots of the MNetters' responses on other activist forums and laughing about them while engaging, which also made many at the time wonder about the difference between words and actions, and trustworthiness in general. Particularly since what was being laughed at was women trying to explain their problems with mixed sex spaces.

A persistent theme on this thread is that posters are taking a Dworkin stance (and that includes any who might dislike the word 'feminism').

Feminism is a political practice of fighting male supremacy on behalf of women as a class, including all the women you don't like, including all the women you don't want to be around, including all the women who use to be your best friends whom you don't want anything to do with any more. It doesn't matter who the individual women are. Dworkin

Yet the message from the enlightened ones is that they don't support all women. And there are times when men are to be preferred allies to (say) trans widows.

This discussion feels like a reprise of this one and I'm linking to a thoughtful post on sumptuary laws.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4640337-sarah-ditum-on-posie-parker?page=9&reply=120351217

Maybe if you made your random remarks without quoting a post from someone, your intentions might be clearer.

taking on the most uncharitable interpretation of what they say.

Couldn't agree more.

Go well.

Jesus, I don't know. On the one hand we have Debbie Hayton. A self-confessed AGP who places the rest of humanity in second place. On the other hand we have any number of serial killers who place the rest of humanity in second place.

Honestly, I can't weigh it up.