Debbie and Stephanie Hayton interview transcript

[Clymene]

I thought the women of FWR might be interested in the interview that Debbie and Stephanie did with the Straight Spouse Network podcast this week.

It explains quite a lot about Stephanie's demeanour in their interview with Stella O'Malley for her documentary.

* [edited by MNHQ - broken link removed] * **

Hayton interview 1/3:

Kristen: Hello everyone and welcome to today's episode of the straight spouse Network podcast straight spouse voices. I'm your host Kristen Kelly. Today's guests are Debbie and Stephanie Hayton. Stephanie Hayton teaches physics in Birmingham England as a female physics teacher. She has supported and encouraged girls to study the subject and take up careers in the physical. Sciences and Engineering. She is also a lay minister in the Church of England. Debbie Hayton is a high school physics teacher and Trade union officer based in Birmingham England. She transitioned eight years ago. More recently, she became active in the transgender debate where she seeks to maintain the rights of transgender people without compromising the rights of women or the safeguarding of children.
Welcome to the podcast today, Debbie and Stephanie. I'm so excited to have you.

Well, the reason I wanted to have you both on the show, we have interviewed several women who have been married to transgender women in varying degrees relationship degrees of divorce, separation, staying together. We have not spoken with a transgender woman so far on the podcast. So Debbie, you are our first transgender woman guest. So thank you for being here. And Stephanie we have not interviewed a couple so far, so we've heard from other spouses of transgender women, but we have not done a joint interview together so I'm glad that you're both on the show today.

So I think one of the things that we really want to highlight with your stories and we'll start kind of at the beginning with your early marriage and we'll start with Stephanie about the early marriage, but just can you kind of tell us how you all met and how long you dated before you got married and how it was in the beginning.

Stephanie: We met at University. We lived in the same Halls of residence. Although Deb is a couple of years older than I am. She moved into the Hall where I was living when Debbie became a post-grad, and I was a second year undergraduate student. So that's where we met. Initially, I went out with somebody else and then we split up and Debbie and I started dating and shortly after we started dating we wanted to make it permanent. Although we felt it was a bit soon to make that kind of decision. So we probably waited about 18 months and then got engaged, and then waited another 18 months or so before we got married and I was 23 and Debbie was 25.

Kristen: And had anything, Debbie, I'll ask you, did you have an inkling at the time that you were dating Stephanie that you were transgender and did that come up at all in the conversations?

Debbie: I knew I had internal struggles and I knew I had those since I was very young but I didn't really have the words to express it, I guess and being transgender well the word didn't exist then but it was not something which I wanted to do, it was something I struggled with and it was something which I had hoped to quell and really keep to the back of my mind and keep very well hidden.

Kristen: Right. So it was kind of like would you say for you, It was kind of like if I just ignore it or if I kind of stuff it at the back of my mind was it like maybe this won't come up from time to time? Like maybe I can keep it sort of Under Wraps. Was that kind of how it went for you?

Debbie: Yes. It was I guess; it was something which you wanted to just put to one side and do nothing with. I do remember it was while we were dating. I do remember telling Stephanie about it because I felt I ought to, but I don't think Stephanie actually remembers that. It was something going into it caused me a great internal anguish, but for Stephanie, I don't think it registered.

Kristen: Got it. Okay with Stephanie would you does that, you know, jive with your recollection that you don't maybe necessarily remember that?

Stephanie: I remember Debbie mentioning something about occasionally in the past once or twice having tried on women's clothing and that she was basically never going to do it again and that was in the past and that was over. As Debbie said, I think her recollection of what she said was possible a little bit bigger than my recollection of what she said, and but that was it. And so it was a one sentence conversation and we moved on.

Kristen: Okay, got it and I think that that this would have been in the 70s? Maybe the 80s around then?

Stephanie: It's around about 1990. I guess at this point.

Kristen: Oh really? 1990. Okay. Sorry! I'm not I'm not trying to make you older than you really are. So, okay, but 1990 right, and you're right the word transgender didn't exist. There was there was transsexual and there was crossdresser or transvestite. Those were kind of the terms that were around then to describe people who imagine themselves in the opposite gender. Was that correct?

Debbie: Yeah at the time there were there were two very distinct groups of people which you saw occasionally portrayed in the media. There were transsexuals and transvestites, and they came across as two different groups. The former were pitied really were transsexuals, that something dreadful had clearly happened to these people. Whereas the transvestites at a time were objects of ridicule.

Kristen: Right? Right. Okay, so not a not a welcoming climate to embrace this aspect of yourself at the time clearly So you have this sort of one sentence conversation where it's just sort of discussed, maybe not even discussed, but sort of mentioned and then kind of put into the background and you get married eventually and the early years of the marriage ... Stephanie, when you and I talked before it sounded like things were pretty good?

Stephanie: Yes, we both did some Physics research for a few years and then moved into teaching and then my daughter was born first and then two sons after that and yes, I do remember back in - I'm some trying to remember now - in about 2010 just thinking that life was really, really good. I was very, very happy with my family life, I was very happy in my marriage. I enjoyed the work that I was doing and almost life couldn't get any better.

Kristen: Wow. Okay, so things are going really good. And what was that period like for you Debbie as Stephanie's experiencing life like, "Things can't get any better, life is great, love my husband, love my job, love my family. “What’s happening for you at that time?

Debbie: Well, this is 2010. This was when I was beginning to struggle with what had been a chronic, really a chronic struggle for years, was becoming acute. On the surface, everything was normal, everything was the same and day to day life was continuing. But within, there was just a bigger and bigger internal struggle, which I was finding increasingly difficult to cope with.

Kristen: Can you tell us a little bit more about that Debbie like what the struggle was like for you, and what did you feel and how did it come out behaviourally? Were you experimenting with women's clothing, kind of secretly, or how did that go?

Debbie: I guess I'd had bought some women's clothing occasionally throughout my life, you know from when I was about 16 and I'd go through cycles of buying it, purging it, deciding never ever to do that again, and the cycle would repeat. I'd had clothes around hidden in various places in the house and that that seemed to be enough for a while.

It was just enough sometimes, just to know that it was there, so I didn't have to buy more. But what was becoming increasingly apparent to me around 2010-2011 is that people were transitioning, and people were able to do this. Before then it had seemed something in another world. Occasionally you'd read stories in the Press, very occasionally hear something on the television, but you know, it was it was very infrequent. But by 2010-2011 it was becoming more frequent, and the more I heard about other people transitioning, the more I felt that this was something I needed to do as well.

Kristen: And so this is all happening underground for you. So this Is privately struggling, and Stephanie doesn't have any idea that this is going on for you at this time, like 2010 around in there.

Debbie: No. No, I was still in a situation and thinking this can go away. So Stephanie doesn't need to be troubled about this. I've coped with it for 40 years; I can carry on coping with this. But it was becoming much more intense within me.

Kristen: So what was the sort of Tipping Point where it was it now became 'Okay, this isn't going away. I do have to do this.' What was the Tipping Point? And at what point did you tell Stephanie?

Debbie: It's hard to remember, it was sudden in me that it became overwhelming, but I can't remember a single specific issue in me. I remember telling Stephanie at one point that there was a big struggle inside me, but again at the time I don't think I realized just how profound it actually was. And then when I started talking, the more I talked about it, the more the compulsion grew. Grew exponentially the more I was talking about it and that increased the feedback on me. So it was it was just becoming totally out of hand couldn't cope.

Kristen: Mmm. And when you say that internal struggle, was like what is that when we hear people talking about like I feel like I'm a female born in the wrong body or ... What is that feeling?

Debbie: It's so hard to actually describe. It was, I could say it was a deep psychological distress at the time. I did think I was some kind of woman, who had been trapped by some dreadful twist of fate in in the wrong body. And that even that metaphor about being born in the wrong body, that became established in me and that very fact that this this was the answer to all the problems I'd been struggling with for 40 years. Then left me in a in a situation where I think, 'This is what I have to do because almost this, you know, this is my destiny.'

Kristen: mmm. Oh wow. So it has like a metaphysical angle to it almost (laughing) Like beyond just the biological and physical, it becomes like almost a raison d'etre.

Debbie: Yeah, it was, and it became all-consuming.

The last link worked for me but there was a nasty pop up thing I had to try and get away from.

I didn't get any security alerts.
Pastebin is useful for plain text but would remove the formatting from your PDF.

I am a bit confused about one point, I thought Straight Spouse Network post interviews with the spouses of people who transition, or who come out as gay?

www.straightspouse.org/voices-podcast/s3-ep-18-how-gender-transition-impacts-a-couple/

Hayton interview 2/3:

Kristen: So Stephanie, what was this period like for you then? Where Debbie is becoming more and more consumed with this idea that she wants to transition? She's first of all, what was the first inkling for you that, 'okay, there's something more here that has to be dealt with' rather than just something that Debbie is privately dealing with. When did it first come on your radar that we have to deal with something here?

Stephanie: (sarcastically) I don't think it was a case of coming on to the radar, I think it was a case of being told. I can't actually remember the exact announcement. Except I do know that Debbie said it to me. Said that she was a woman born in a man's body, that she wasn't going to transition because it would upset me, and our family life too much, but that rather people had already been told.

And over the next few months, as Debbie said, it did become very consuming of her, that I think links with some of the trans community and certain counsellors didn't help. So that Debbie would announce to me that I had nothing to say on the matter because I wasn't trans, so I didn't understand.

That this was, well first of all, it was that she wasn't going to transition even though she really should do, and then it became actually she had to transition, and that she was going to transition whether I agreed with it or not, whether I wanted it or not. And that if necessary that she would walk away, leave us all, as long as she could transition.

Kristen: Okay, so it goes from - just to kind of summarize it - it goes from Debbie coming to you and basically saying she's a woman in a man's body, but she's not going to transition at first because that's a bridge too far, and she's got a family and a wife and she doesn't want to disrupt that. But then not long after that, it sounds like then, It the reverse happens. It's okay, I am going to transition, I have to transition Stephanie. You have no say in the matter. And even if I lose the marriage and leave the family this is going to happen, is that kind of ...?

Stephanie: Yes, I don't know what that time interval was, but it was you know, it was a few months, maybe six months.

Kristen: Okay, so and what was that first bit like for you, when Debbie came and said, I'm a woman? What was your reaction to that?

Stephanie: I'm not sure that I believed it very much that, I think there was a very playful little boy aspect that I saw within the person who is my husband, and I didn't understand how this playful little boy could grow up and say, 'Actually I'm now a grown woman'. So I just really wasn't sure whether I accepted it, I didn't know what was going on. I did not see a woman. I saw a man and a little boy, but no woman and definitely no little girl.

Kristen: Right, right. And did you think at that point everything's going to change now, or since you're not necessarily believing that Debbie is a woman, are you thinking that this is something that's going to go away? Or was it just so kind of confusing that you almost couldn't even wrap your brain around it?

Stephanie: It was probably the latter. It was very confusing. Trans stuff wasn't in the media, wasn't really known about very much for the average member of the public which is what I was. If Debbie said that she was a woman, but wasn't going to transition, it was almost well, 'What difference is that going to make to me?'. And we did have three children, and my priority, if Debbie was struggling mentally which she was, and dealing with this issue. My priority was 'Let's keep the family together. Let's keep the children safe.'

Kristen: Right. and then okay, so then when it became Debbie saying, 'Okay, this is happening. I am transitioning, if you're not trans you don't understand, and so you don't get a say in this'. What was that like for you?

Stephanie: That was very hard. Being told that you have no say regardless is a difficult place to be, especially when I still didn't really understand, still didn't really know what was going on. I did feel that I was losing my voice (voice breaks). And so I remember, I was seeing a counsellor at the time and I remember turning up one session and just actually being unable to speak. Everything was going too fast, too far, and I couldn't even put words to how I was feeling.

Kristen: Wow. I feel like I want to take a moment and say thank you both again for coming to do this interview because this is not easy stuff to talk about and it's not easy stuff to lay open to people who are outside of your relationship, and so on behalf of the people who are listening, who are getting to hopefully, on both sides, feel that they're not alone, and are navigating this themselves, just thank you again for coming on. I want to take a quick break and we're going to come back and after we come back, I want to talk about the actual transition period when Debbie was transitioning and find out how what that was like for both of you. So we're going to be right back with Debbie and Stephanie Hayton.

So before the break we were talking about how Debbie basically said, 'All right. This is it. This is happening, buckle up.'
And so Debbie, what were the first steps towards transition? Like, what did you say, and did you know how far you wanted to go in transition? Were you just thinking, 'Okay, if I just wear some women's underwear a little bit, that'll be good, or if I get a wig and makeup ...’? What were those touchstones for you that were going to be the ones that basically alleviated your distress?

Debbie: It all happened very quickly; I'd never been one for dressing. As I said, I did have a few clothes but not very many, but it all became very quick. It all happened very quickly in my mind, there was denial that I needed to transition, that I would just be able to, you know, keep it at bay. But what happened very very rapidly, and this was the Autumn of 2011, I went to see my GP and said, 'I think I might be transsexual' and asked for the referrals to Psychiatry and specialist services under the NHS and took it really from there.

The same Health Services now are totally overwhelmed but at the time it was possible to get a referral, and once you were referred into the system, that all took place very, very quickly. Within 4 months, I'd decided that I was you know, I was going to transition, and I had to transition. And dates were set and they kept coming forwards, and I remember one consultation with a specialist psychiatrist saying that I was going to transition at Christmas, and I'd never been out the house in female role and she looked at me very quizzically and said, 'Well, you know, you've got some work to do here' and it really starting from a standing start.

Kristen: Okay, I have so many questions. Okay. So when you say I'm setting a date for transition, what does - and I'm not asking personal questions about surgeries and everything like that because that's just invasive and I think inappropriate - but what does transition mean? And is it a gradual process, or is it, do you set a date and say, 'On this day, I am now living as a woman' or 'On this day. I am now a woman'. Like what is transition for you?

Debbie: I guess it was it was a social transition, and it was a step change, but it's was 'What is this? What different?' I remember, you know, I'd had the physicist in me, you know plans and prepares, and I had all these charts about, 'On this day, I was going to do this, on this day I was going to do this'. And we set - I set - Stephanie's right; I set I set two dates: one where I would become Debbie outside work because I work as a teacher so that was a high-stress situation. And then a later one for transitioning at work and becoming Debbie at work, and I just remember it was that period in between the two and it was about a month, when you just think well what happened here? I was going to work in male role and then coming home supposedly in female role, but it didn't really make a lot of sense because, in the vast majority of situations, we don't really make much of a change.
We're just ourselves and what actually changes in transition is not very clear. The big thing I guess was when I went to work, you know, the aspect at work that was very different where I was referred to with different pronouns and I did make an effort to dress differently and you know, and interact differently. But at home with Stephanie and the children, I was still the same person I'd always been, and it just seemed it just seemed false and you know and unreal to try to be anybody else.

Kristen: Okay and Stephanie, would you agree with that? Would you say that Debbie was just who she'd always been when she came home in female role now as opposed to when she was in male role?

Stephanie: Debbie was going through some major mental health issues at the time. I think the time leading up to transition was probably a diagnosably bad mental health and that certainly the initial time of transition, and when I say initial time, that might be up to 18 months or two years, where her mental health wasn't very good. So to say that she was coming home and just being normal self, well actually normal self was not very good self at the time. And so whether it was bad mental health male or bad mental health female role, it was a bit difficult to say. There was an impact on the children and the family about, 'Well, If Dad's changed then what does this actually mean?' and we agreed certain guidelines within the house just to make it a bit easier.

I did notice for a while, maybe it wasn't it wasn't a huge amount, but maybe for a year where I almost felt that Debbie was trying to drop male chores around the house and pick up female chores. Obviously male and female chores differ for different households, but within our house there were certain things that I did, and certain things that Debbie did and I felt that I was more and more being left with most of them, to be honest! But I think this was an aspect of the poor mental health, but also sometimes Debbie was almost trying to do things that I would normally do. So for example, it was ironing and making bread which don't have to be limited to women but are the jobs that I tend to do in the house. If you like, making bread was sort of a fun job for me. And actually I quite like ironing as well, but it did make me feel like my space was being invaded a little bit.

A quick tip. When I come across a site I want to look at but am warned away from I copy the link and paste it into an archiving website:

archive.fo/uYId0

In this case something hasn't gone right and a couple of pages are missing for me but most is there.

Sorry it's going to be in 4 bits so this is 3/4

Kristen: Yeah. I wanted to ask you about the impact of the transition on you emotionally and on the kids. So let's start with you. So emotionally, your partner, your spouse is now coming home in a different role, living as female, how did you respond emotionally to that? Did you feel a sense of grief, a feel a sense of loss, was there any anger? What was happening for you?

Stephanie: I didn't really understand what was going on, but it was going on very fast. So there was confusion. That was some anger, but I responded by very strongly trying to hold it together. And I think you know with that with hindsight maybe I didn't process my own emotions as well as I could have done at the time, but we got through it. And it was holding it together and particularly when Debbie was going through this really quite bad mental health and actually there was a possibility that in a month's time, Debbie might have committed suicide. So I'm living with all of that at the time as well. And it was just, 'Well, let's keep it going for the children, let's hold it together, we're okay for now.'

The worst time, and it was in October, but I can't remember which year, I would wake up in the morning and just think, 'Can I get through the next few hours?' and then at 10 or 11 o'clock, I'd think, 'Can I get through the next few hours?' And thankfully that didn't go on very long, maybe it was only six weeks or two months while I was living like that, but that bit I remember was very hard, very very tiring, and just kind of keeping on going, keeping on going. Can I take the next step?

Kristen: Did you think about leaving at any point, did you think about divorce or was it, 'let's keep it together for the kids and the family'?
Stephanie: We did at one point. We decided, I can't remember why, but we decided that maybe we should take time out to chat once a fortnight or so and we went out to a local arts centre on the Thursday evening and we would chat about how things were going. And Debbie's life at the time did revolve around Debbie. It was what Debbie wanted; Debbie was choosing. I had no say apart from at maximum, 'Just kind of slow down very slightly' and one of these Thursday evenings, I just said, 'Well look you keep telling me that you're going to transition, you're going to keep going. Even if you have to leave, even if you have to walk out, I think maybe we need to separate because I can't cope with it anymore,' and Debbie said, 'Okay if that's what you want, then that's what we'll do.'

But my daughter was about two months away from her first set of significant School exams, which are taken at age 16 in Britain. And so two weeks later, we went back on a Thursday evening to this local arts centre and Debbie said, 'I've been thinking and I'm not going to move out. I want to stay' and at that point, I really just felt, 'Well, I've got nothing here. All along, you've been saying that, if necessary, you will leave and eventually I've got to the point of saying okay, you need to leave. And you're now saying you refuse.' So again, actually that was a turning point for Debbie. I think Debbie realized that if she wanted to stay within the family, she needed to actually start thinking about the family a little bit more, rather than just what she wanted and how she was going to do things. And after that, I started having a little bit more of a say and Debbie would ask my opinion about things and I felt that my opinion was actually making a small amount of difference, maybe not huge, but a small amount of difference. And we got through my daughter's exams and, at that point, you know, it was then three months after I'd said, 'I think you need to leave'. And things were better, though a long way from perfect but much better than that very, very low point.

Kristen: Yeah, I do want to talk to you about the kids in a second, but first I want to ask Debbie. So does that kind of align with your experience of saying 'Okay, I will leave if I need to,' but then what made you say, 'No, I want to stay.' What was that for you? And then what were the adjustments ... did you feel like you did try to make adjustments to sort of either accommodate or include Stephanie in the process a little bit more.

Debbie: It's really difficult hearing that and thinking back to that time. Yeah, I was in a bad way psychologically, my mental health was in tatters really. I guess I wanted my cake and to eat it. I wanted to transition and keep the family and have all the family life which I'd enjoyed up until then. And trying to hold all those things in. But you know, the most important person in there at the time and I thinking back it was clear, it was me. And trying to make space for other people in my mind was very difficult, even Stephanie and the children.

Kristen: Thank you for saying that because I think I think that that's not an easy thing to admit or to say, and I think it validates what a lot of women that I've talked to, and I've talked to several now who have had transgender partners, that that it's kind of like holding onto a horse that's taken off and your feet aren't even in the stirrups yet. And you're lucky if you have a rein, one rein in your hand let alone two. And that stopping transition is kind of like trying to stop the ocean waves, it kind of rolls over the family and washes over you. I can't imagine just personally the level of mental distress that everybody is in, in the family at this time. But were you able to at all Debbie like kind of step back and say what is this like for Stephanie? How is she doing through this? Or for you was transition so all-consuming that it just kind of everything else gets pushed to the side?

Debbie: Well at the time I thought I was doing. And we'd have conversations, and Stephanie would say, 'All you're interested in is yourself', and at the time I thought I was including Steph. But looking back now, I wasn't, but I wasn't in a place to actually to notice how self-serving and selfish that I was at the time

Kristen: So what about the kids? How did they how did they navigate the transition of a parent? I guess Stephanie you'd mentioned before that you guys had put some guidelines in place for the kids. And what were those guidelines and how did they cope emotionally?

Stephanie: Well, once we'd decided on a date that Debbie was going to transition we needed to tell certain people in a certain order and that happened very rapidly because we were fairly sure that once one group of people knew, it would be spread out, and we wanted to get our letters out, so that people were hearing from us rather than each other. So we had a couple of weeks where the PCC, so the church council at our church were informed, and then the next day the children were informed, and the following Sunday, the rest of the congregation were informed and then our families were informed because they live some distance so that they weren't necessarily going to hear immediately from our friends. And all of that was quite in place so that the children wouldn't have to tell people and if the children needed to speak to somebody, there'd be somebody there. I'd already spoken to a teacher or the relevant teacher at each of the Children's Schools so that the teachers knew what was happening, and that the children would be finding out on this particular date so that they could be ready to support if needed. So all of that was set in place.

Regarding guidelines at home, it was in some ways just to kind of trying to minimize the impact on the children immediately so they could adjust a little bit more slowly. So for example, Debbie said that she wouldn't wear a skirt at home. Women can obviously wear blouses and trousers and that was just slightly easier to handle than seeing a dad wearing a blouse and a skirt. So Debbie did that. I can't remember many of the others. Actually the children still called Debbie Dad. We did discuss that, and we have discussed it at different times, but we thought if we try to amalgamate mom and dad you come up with either mad or dumb, neither which were best appropriate.
Oh, it's small things like that. Just where Debbie said, 'Okay, I won't wear a skirt and I'll still respond to dad,' and things like that. I would go to the children's parents’ evenings, because the children just felt they couldn't cope with having what looked like two women, or a woman and someone who was halfway between, so I did that for some while.

But the children did come through it at their own pace and in some cases it took a few years, but all of the children after three or four years had told some friends, and those friends had responded positively and I think that helped them. And they all knew that there was this congregation of people at church who knew, and they were still themselves within that congregation, that they weren't being isolated or being left out. One of the children saw a school counsellor for a while who was incredibly helpful, another one of the children actually got to see the same counsellor, but just for a few sessions and although at the time we didn't think that helped very much, with hindsight this particular child said it was helpful, it was helpful just to know that it was okay. Because the counsellor said it was okay, that your dad still loves you, and you're still okay, and you're still a family and it's okay. That child looks back on that time and said yeah, that was really good to hear.

Kristen: Right. Well, I want to thank you for sharing about your kids navigating that and of course, we wish them all the best continued still in their lives. I think are they high school age, college age now I think.

Stephanie: The youngest is going off to University in a couple of days’ time and the other two are beyond.

Kristen: So good luck to them and University and in life. We're going to take a quick break and when we come back I want to talk about how things are now and then a little bit about you know, Debbie's sort of public persona. She's out there in the world talking about these issues. So we're going to take a quick break and we'll be right back with more Stephanie and Debbie.

And so you guys obviously you decided to stay married and I wonder, and I want to address this question to Stephanie first. Was this kind of like a default choice or was this an active choice on your part where you're like, 'I want to keep the family together'. Did you get to a place where you were like, 'Okay, I'm good with the marriage again, despite those rocky years during transition where I was kind of the glue holding it together'. How did you come down on staying together?

Stephanie: I've been thinking about this quite a bit over the last few days since knowing this was coming up. If I'm honest, it was a default position, but it was a default position that I actively chose, that I did want, if I could hold the family together then I wanted to do that. Obviously now, we're in a situation where all three children will have left home in a couple of days’ time. And so it just raises the question again, 'Well, is that still the default position?' and for me it is yes. It has been a rocky road, but there is an awful lot of shared history now, which is important to me, and we're looking ahead longer now one point. As I said, at one point, I said, 'Can I get through the next three hours?' whereas now we're looking ahead and saying, well five years’ time, 10 years’ time, 20 years’ time, what will it be like? So we can see ahead further into the future.

We're both facing possible changes as we get the freedom of the empty nest, but I think all the way along, we've actually been supportive of each other trying to do what we needed to do. And maybe that's why we are still together, or why I stayed when Debbie transitioned because actually there was something about, 'Well if Debbie needs to do this, then I will support that'. Within reason, as long as it didn't, you know, completely traumatize the rest of us. I don't know if you want to hear any more at the moment. Those are thoughts that have been going through my head. Many years ago, someone asked me about my marriage, and I said, 'We work well together,' and I thought afterwards, 'that sounds so unromantic'. It sounds awful. But actually there's still a lot of truth in that, we work well together.

Part 4/4

Kristen: Debbie. What's that like hearing Stephanie talk about your marriage these days in those terms?

Debbie: Yeah, I'd probably say that Stephanie is my best friend and it's been my best friend since I since I met her 30 years ago . And for me, I wanted to stay together because she's my friend, I love her very much and being with her was much better than not being with her. We were already married, and I wanted to keep that relationship, or what relationship we could move forward with

Kristen: Mmm. And so Stephanie, I've got a question for you and this is coming from the minds of listeners. I know it because I've heard it and so it's kind of a difficult question. But first off do you consider yourself a lesbian? That's a very sort of political question and a personal one at the same time. And how has this impacted your sense of your sexuality, your identity and the second half of that question is, do you miss being in a relationship with a man?

Stephanie: And to the first bit, do I consider myself a lesbian? No, I think what it has made me realize though is how innate our sexuality is, it's given me a much greater understanding of the LGB community, that it isn't that easy just to switch his sexuality and I am not a lesbian and I can't switch it, because it would be easier if I could. So that's the first answer.

The second answer. Do I miss being in a relationship with a man? Yes, I do. That is a grief to me but not big enough to say, 'Well, actually I'm going to get divorced and get out there and have a look'. Debbie is my best friend and I think at the moment that's, that's my choice. That makes it sound like I'm going to change it. But no, that is that is a choice. Yes. I do miss that kind of relationship. But I've also usually got on with men far better than women. So I actually have a number of male friends and so I can have that friendship, even if I don't have that intimate relationship

Kristen: These are such tough questions, and they're questions that families are dealing with and asking themselves right now. And in fact, one of my very best friends who's in a domestic partnership with a transwoman. They were married, they did divorce then they re-entered a domestic partnership because they still cared about each other so much and considered each other family.

And these are the questions that she's asking herself. Can I remarry this person actually or will I be okay without that aspect of my own sexuality and so I thank you for speaking so openly about it because there are real families, real women, real transgender women and people who are asking themselves these questions right now, wondering how they're going to navigate going forward.
I want to ask Debbie. So in your bio we talked about how you're a bit of a public persona now and you've been doing some speaking and some writing on issues of transgender rights and equality. And I wonder if you can just kind of tell us a little bit about what it is that you do and what kind of writing you do. What kind of speaking you do and what's happening out there in the sort of political sphere which I know gets really heated on the question of transgender rights Etc. So what's happening out there tell us

Debbie: it's very heated. It seems to be the most polarized and toxic political debate I've ever known, but it's something which is personal to me. It was four years ago, the government in the UK decided that they wanted to change the law so that we'd move from a system where people can change their sex, their legal sex, that's the sex marked on your birth certificate, from needing a doctor's diagnosis and medical reports to basically being a free-for-all. At the time, I thought that was a bad idea because the credibility in the system came from those checks and balances.

So I started campaigning. I felt that this change would make trans people less secure in society, it would damage our position in society and basically make people trust us less I felt, so I didn't think it was a good idea. So I started campaigning on it and over the next year or so, I formed alliances with different people. And there was two groups really which I came across, one were women who were protective of their of their rights, their boundaries and their ability to you know, guard the access to their own spaces, and they felt that that was something for them to decide rather than a male person to be able to identify into it.

And then also there are other there are other groups campaigning about the impact on children which, as a teacher, I've also got some very strong views about. So I got I got embroiled in this but over that period, it's the last three years really, it became clear to me and working with the women campaigning, it really became clear to me that I wasn't any kind of woman, that women were different.

You know, I'm male, women are female and this to me was ... I'm a scientist and yes biological sex matters, biological sex is real, and the two sexes are different. And I started opening my mouth and saying what I thought on this and the reaction was intense it really was, and very negative.

And I guess different people would have would have backed off at that point but I am a little bit contrary and when people tell me, when people start objecting I then think well, okay, let's you know, let's push a bit harder and see what happens. So I did get to the point when I was able to say what I actually felt was true, without being constrained by the views of others. So you know, I was I was debating was debating my arguments, which I felt were reasoned and based in science. And that I think did it did set me apart from others, because others either thought differently, or those who do think the same are less willing to actually speak out because the reaction it generates.

Kristen: No, I mean, so just to kind of highlight for our listeners. So I think there's multiple points of sort of debate around transgender rights at the moment and it's a bit different in the UK than in the US right now because the UK has the self-id, the change to the gender recognition act which would enable self ID which is what you're referring to. But also just the basic principle that as a transgender woman, am I male or am I female, that's a debated point in the transgender community. For some it is heresy to say yes, I am a male and I am a transgender woman because there's a group of transgender people and not transgender people and cis people who believe that you know, if you're a transgender woman you are female. So it's kind of a wild ride in the transgender community right now as far as this conversation is concerned.

Debbie: Yes, it is. And it is viewed in some areas that if I say I am a transgender woman and I am male, that's almost seen as hate speech to some people. Yeah, because by saying that, I'm accused of denying their identity, but when they say they are transgender woman, and they are female. I don't I don't feel that denies my identity, I just think they're wrong. And people are wrong about lots of things. And so there's an asymmetry there, a huge asymmetry where one side is allowed to make their arguments and the other side just thinks they're wrong. And when I make my arguments I'm accused of being a hateful bigot denying people's identity. It doesn't add up.

Kristen: Even though you're a transgender whatever, you know internalized transphobia kind of thing.

Debbie: Yeah, I guess yeah. I get accused of internalized transphobia or not being really trans, I'm masquerading as a trans person.

Kristen: Stephanie what is all of this like for you watching sort of Debbie's public life and as she's become more outspoken and known for that outspokenness. What's it like watching all of this for you?

Stephanie: I do stay away from it to a large extent. I think we can only have one campaigner in the family. It makes Debbie very busy, but apart from that sometimes I know that there can be a number of hateful comments and she gets a bit down about it . I think she tries to limit that and sensibly quite keep it in a smaller container. There are occasions where we discuss certain things, and I think over the years, because Debbie and I have been discussing these issues that actually I know there are some areas where Debbie is actually thought, 'Oh, yes, okay. I've been thinking this and now Stephanie is saying something different, maybe I need to consider Stephanie's point of view as well.' So I've noticed something some small changes in what Debbie has been saying because we've been talking about it. But the rest of the campaigning, I sit, and I think I'm glad I'm not doing it.

Kristen: But you're like, I'm gonna go make some bread! Well, we're at time and Podcast today and I just want to again thank you both so much for coming on and talking about these really challenging difficult and deeply human issues and experiences. And yeah, thank you for being with us today.

Fascinating read-I feel so much empathy for Stephanie wanting to keep her family together and keep the children safe, but crikey, at what cost to herself? I hope she finds happiness and ideally the love of another man, who can cherish her.

I also am grateful for Debbie speaking out so publicly about the reality of being a transgender woman, ie biology does matter.

Well done Clemene.

Really interesting to read Debbie's recognition that she behaved badly during the transition.

www.dropbox.com/s/vmp97iax1d2xj16/haytons%20transcript.pdf

I have created a throwaway dropbox account so you can download it from there. I'll report my earlier links to get them deleted

I feel a massive amount of sympathy for Stephanie, but I also think she seems to be an incredibly strong woman. To hold your and your children's state of mind stable through this utter chaos is hugely commendable.

"That is a woman in an abusive relationship."

God I really hate some of what is on this board.

Debbie has said that she regrets the selfish way she acted when she was transitioning. Loads of people behave badly when they're going through a bad time. It doesn't mean that they are evil people.

Debbie is pretty damn honest about what she is, and if Stephanie thinks that Debbie is her best friend then maybe she knows more about her situation than you do, who have read one interview?

I wanted to read this, but kept getting unwanted notifications from half-dressed women+ a warning about protecting my device, so I had to delete it.

Ah, sorry, see I cross posted. Thanks so much f or doing the cut and paste Clymene

"Debbie would announce to me that I had nothing to say on the matter because I wasn't trans, so I didn't understand."

Sending love and solidarity to Stephanie. I would really like to hear more from Stephanie if she were able to do an interview by herself.

"Stephanie: That was very hard. Being told that you have no say regardless is a difficult
place to be, especially when I still didn't really understand, still didn't really know what
was going on. I did feel that I was losing my voice (voice breaks). And so I remember, I was seeing a counsellor at the time and I remember turning up one session and just actually being unable to speak. Everything was going too fast, too far, and I couldn't
even put words to how I was feeling."

If this level of gaslighting and manipulation is clear when Stephanie speaks under the supervision of her husband, what would she be able to say if he wasn’t there to control her?

All of this is very disturbing indeed, and every time I think my estimation of DH can’t sink any lower he somehow manages to prove me wrong.

With best friends like that who needs enemies?

"Debbie's life at the time did revolve around Debbie. It was what Debbie wanted;
Debbie was choosing. I had no say apart from at maximum, 'Just kind of slow down
very slightly' and one of these Thursday evenings, I just said, 'Well look you keep telling
me that you're going to transition, you're going to keep going. Even if you have to leave,
even if you have to walk out, I think maybe we need to separate because I can't cope
with it anymore,' and Debbie said, 'Okay if that's what you want, then that's what we'll do [...] Debbie said, 'I've been thinking and I'm
not going to move out. I want to stay' and at that point, I really just felt, 'Well, I've got
nothing here. All along, you've been saying that, if necessary, you will leave and
eventually I've got to the point of saying okay, you need to leave. And you're now saying
you refuse.'"

Thank you for c & p work, Clymene!

I'm torn with DH. I feel I ought to applaud their willingness to stand up to the TRAs but I cannot bear to. The entitlement of saying "Buckle up babe, I'm doing this whether you and the kids want me to or not" is breathtaking (and as fucking masculine as it can get). The self awareness they display later on only came at a cost but not to them, it came at the cost of Stephanie's mental health, and that of their kids. It pisses me off that a female had to do the thinking for the selfish git and make them see what affect their actions were having on the very people they were supposed to love the most.

I'm happy to have someone like DH actually speaking up, but oh my god, what a self serving gaslighting prick she is.

Poor Stephanie. I hope she finds some peace. That's her whole adult life swallowed up in someone else's damage really.

But what happened very very rapidly, and this was the Autumn of 2011, I went to see my GP and said, 'I think I might be transsexual' and asked for the referrals to Psychiatry and specialist services under the NHS and took it really from there.

...Within 4 months, I'd decided that I was you know, I was going to transition, and I had to transition. And dates were set and they kept coming forwards, and I remember one consultation with a specialist psychiatrist saying that I was going to transition at Christmas

So that's the robust checks and balances that occur under the current system.

A man goes to his GP in September and by Christmas has the authority to transition? How is it different to self id?

Does anyone know which pronouns we are allowed to use in relation to DH on here?

As far as I know, DH admits to being a male and is okay with he/him pronouns? Thus, are we allowed to talk about DH using male pronouns?

I'm struggling to get through it, to be honest. That poor woman.

Debbie is calling themself a transsexual, having made a distinction between transvestite and transsexual. But Debbie is a fully paid up, self confessed AGP. That's transvestism, not transsexualism.

And being wholly unable to explain what is the difference between a female role and a male role? Of course. Because, certainly at the point I'm reading, it's just clothes. And subsequently becomes 'female chores'???

Becoming sexually aroused by wearing clothes of opposite sex. That's AGP. And teaching in a school, getting the children to call you miss, and deciding to wear clothes that are normally far more feminine than you would otherwise?

Anyone who is even dipped in to transwidows' experiences, will see this is utterly textbook.

All of it. Debbie knew from adolescence, but kept it from Stephanie, even after they had children. And when they did tell her, she wasn't allowed an opinion.

Ffs.

And HQ, I know discussion of AGP is a sensitive issue on these boards, but I'm just repeating what Debbie themself has said.

Being honest about having AGP, does not neutralise it, nor stop it affecting everybody around you.

Once you know what AGP is, how it manifests, and how the males who have it, describe it, reading Debbie's account is incredibly revealing.

I have no doubt that Stephanie will eventually find her way here.

So interesting that when DH decided to take on 'female roles' in the house he went for breadmaking and ironing and not this stuff - 'we did have three children, and my priority, if Debbie was struggling mentally which she was, and dealing with this issue. My priority was 'Let's keep the family together. Let's keep the children safe.'' Because that's the real women's work isn't it? Not turning out a date and walnut loaf and pressing the bedsheets.